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Emergency Response to Flotilla Massacre

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Description

On Monday, Israeli special forces attacked an aid flotilla bound for Gaza in international waters. The commandos have killed at least 10 (up to 19) people and injured dozens of others, mostly Turkish nonviolent activists who were aiming to break Israel's siege with humanitarian supplies. Israel attacked all of the ships in the flotilla, but the killings seem to have happened on the flagship Mavi Marmari.

Protests have been called for this Saturday in both Wellington and Auckland with three demands;

  • End the killings of activists and Palestinians
  • Demand an End to the Siege of Gaza
  • Tell John Key to, "EXPEL THE ISRAELI AMBASSADOR"

Al Jazeera reportsZblog analysis | Info on Gaza Blockade | Socialist Aotearoa


Description

The situation is no less severe now as many of the humanitarian activists are currrently in Israeli prisons, which is why casualties have not been officially determined.  Consequently, these actvists are in further danger of abuse and murder at the hands of the Israeli state.


Protests erupted quickly all over the world in Ankara, Athens, London, Paris and Stokholm.  Emergency meetings took place Tuesday evening in Auckland and Wellington and a national day of action will take place this Saturday. 

 

 

Auckland

 

Protest march, meet in Aotea square at 1:00 pm.  Bring banners, placards, whistles and some spare shoes.

An interfaith candlelight vigil outside the U.S consulate this Friday from 5-7.

Wellington

Meet at 12noon, Saturday 5 June @ the Bucket fountain in Cuba Mall, Wellington

Dunedin

Meet at 12 noon, Saturday 5 June @ Dunedin Museum Reserve Lawn, then march to the Octagon.

 

  • End the killings of activists and Palestinians
  • Demand an End to the Siege of Gaza
  • Tell John Key to, "EXPEL THE ISRAELI AMBASSADOR"

 

 

 

Comments

Chch Rally

I got a message about a Rally today (wednesday) in Christchurch, 4pm, Cathedral Square.

Wellington Vigil

There was also a vigil outside the Israeli Embassy in Wellington today at noon, but unfortunately I wasn't able to make it.

Does anyone have any news from this or the Christchurch one?

Replying to my own comment...

In a reply to my own comment...for anyone else looking yes, there is news about this, right here:

http://indymedia.org.nz/article/78627/angry-wellington-picket

Boycott false "Israeli" goods made in Occupied Territories

All the actions announced are good and supported. But what about hurting the Israeli state and economy where they really are vulnerable. They have - amongst other - a quite strong cosmetics industry generating hundreds of millions of revenue every year.

A leading supplier is Ahava Dead Sea Laboratories based in a small Jewish Settlement inside the occupied West Bank. A factory there produces the bulk, if not all - so called "Dead Sea Cosmetics". These are distributed worldwide - and presently also in numerous Westfield Shopping Malls - in New Zealand. Brand names are 'Ahava', 'Seacret', 'Swisa Beauty', 'Premier' and others.

You will for instance find online sales for these products, as well as quite aggressive Israeli sales teams in almost every Westfield Mall in Auckland pushing these to prospective customers.

Make them a target also, because they represent companies benefitting from the occupation and exploitation of palestinians and their lands.

Following links give information about boycotts overseas that are taking place. Perhaps this should also be taken up as further protest action here in NZ?

http://www.worldbulletin.net/news_detail.php?id=47036

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2009/07/las-vegas-paris-boycott-a...

http://www.bigcampaign.org/index.php?mact=CGBlog,cntnt01,detail,0&cntnt0...

http://news.suite101.com/article.cfm/continued-growth-at-ahava-dead-sea-...

http://www.imemc.org/index.php?obj_id=53&story_id=57941

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10925.shtml

http://www.stolenbeauty.org/

http://bdsmovement.net/?q=node/614

http://current.com/news/92407370_boycott-ulta-for-selling-ahava-protesti...

http://adalahny.org/index.php/boycott-divestment-a-sanction/consumer-boy...

There are more websites with info about this. It is the new agenda of the Palestinian resistance to boycott Israeli products that have so far been sold in the Occupied Territories and destroyed a sizable share of the local economy there. This is what really hurts Israel and puts pressure on them to back down from their suppressive stand.

If others follow worldwide, then Israel will hopefully have no alternative but to reconsider its policies towards the people of Palestine.

Just a suggestion!

 

probably more useful to

probably more useful to boycott u.s.a because their the ones funding the IDF...

 

however, boycotts aren't enough

One group of violent thugs

One group of violent thugs with guns boarded a ship full of violent thugs with weapons, the thugs with guns won, who cares both sides are as bad as each other and deserve each other.

Agree that boycotts are not enough, BUT

The Israel government does not care that much about a few dozens or a few hundred demonstrators in Wellington or Auckland marching and holding speaches in front of embassy or consulate. They are well used to it and will sit it out!

So go out and do that anyway, which I totally support.

Reality is (and check the track record of their government's policies and reactions) protests will do very little indeed!

Hence my conviction that MORE is required. Israel relies not only of money from the US, it runs an economy also. If we can hurt that economy, then that is a step forward!

The US is only held at ransom because of the very powerful and active Jewish lobby, many of them Zionists or supporters of that movement!

We will have little influence on that, unless you believe you will get enough support to boycott McDonald's, Starbucks, KFC and whatever?!

So I pointed out some products and companies that make hundreds of millions every year by selling their stuff labelled "made in Israel", which is a fraud anyway!

If you cannot realise the potential in at least including this in any actions, then I regret you do not realise any potential!

"The US is only held at

"The US is only held at ransom because of the very powerful and active Jewish lobby, many of them Zionists or supporters of that movement"

firstly, its not a jewish lobby its a zoinist lobby, the jews who aint zionists are not doing any lobbying.

Secondly, no one is holding the US to ransom. the world's only superpower does what it likes and it quite likes having a bullyboy state in the Middle East to do its dirty work. if the US ever decided that Israel was more trouble than it was worth they would simply stop sending them billlions of dollars of free weapons and ammunition every year and there wouldnt be a damn thing the zionists could do about it. no one is pulling the strings of the US capitalsit class, they are in charge

 

Sorry I tend to disagree

I take your point that it is rather the Zionist lobby that puts pressure on the US government. I accept that they are not the only lobby group that puts pressure on US governments. There is the petroleum lobby, there is the finance industry lobby (see recent crisis and how little has been done to put the large finance corps and banks under control) there are other business lobby groups, there is the gun happy lobby (NRA), there are other diverse groups of course.

If you really think that the US, and I mean the US government, is not prone to pressure from these groups, then I must say that you are a bit naive!

Why did Obama let BP go on for so long to dilly dally, make up excuses and not put more pressure on that corporation for weeks? It is because BP and other oil companies have a lot of clout and that many southern states and also Alaska do largely depend on the oil industry.

The pro Israel or Zionist lobby in the US is much more powerful than you may think. That is to a large part due to their involvement in much of financial and other enterprises (e.g. in Wall Street) that hold key assets and industries in the US.

Also the US cannot let Israel go down, because it is their only absolutely loyal ally in the Middle East. The US cannot even rely on Iraq for that much, because of that countries large Shiite population and their ties to Iran.

So perhaps give all this some thought.

Obama is less inclined to favour Israel, but he also did make clear in a number of speeches, that the US will stick with Israel and ensure its right of existence and security at all times!

Zionism is alive and well all around the world

See following links for some insight:

http://www.whoprofits.org/index.php

http://www.worldjewishcongress.org/

http://www.zfnz.org.nz/Web.asp

http://www.zfnz.org.nz/Web.asp?Page=168

http://www.zionist.com/

http://www.zoa.org/

http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Home

http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Aliyah

So have a study of information of just those few websites. There are many more that will show the agenda and one-sidedness of these interest- and lobby-groups.

You may think the odd demo will change things, they only laugh about this!

There are strong economic and other interests behind the Zionist lobby. They have close connections to many "western" governments and certainly will remind them all about certain things, last not least "the Shoa". So we are all going to be indebted to them forever, and nobody should question the rights of Israel. Hence hardly any western country really argues with the present Israeli government - or previous or future ones!

Work it out yourself!

To the doubters!

to the doubters of the effect of sanctions and so forth, perhaps read this:

 

http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/06/2010638557492628.html

 

Work out your own agendas and perhaps do better. I still think that sanctions can work and will work if applied thoroughly and if the population gets effectively convinved and involved!

 

Think it through!

Dunedin

apparently...

DUNEDIN: Freedom March! Saturday, June 5, 12 noon Dunedin Museum Reserve Lawn, then march to Octagon.

In our thousands, in our millions...

For anyone interested, I have just posted a brief report on the Wellington protest here:

http://freegaza.nzactivist.org/

If anyone has any news, photos or video from any of the protests (Auckland, Wellington, Dunedin) it would be great if you could post it in a comment so that I can add it.

Dunedin. Demonstration to End The Blockade in Gaza.

Photographs from Demonstration to End The Blockade in Gaza.

Dunedin, Aotearoa New Zealand, Sat 5th June 2010.

A large crowd gathered on the lawns of Otago Museum and marched to The Octagon. Where a number of speakers spoke about the plight of the Palestinians, calling for an End to the blockade in Gaza, Freedom for Palestine and protest against the attacks by Israel on humanitarian aid convoys.

'At 4.30am local time, 31/5/2010 armed Israeli troops boarded one of the boats in the Free Gaza Flotilla which was carrying construction supplies, medical equipment and schoolbooks to Gaza, in an attempt to break the siege which Israel imposed on Gaza over 1080 days ago.'

Demonstrations are being held across the world today.

More Photos from Dunedin demo at:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nicelogo/sets/72157624207842912/Gaza Demo, Dunedin, Aotearoa New Zealand

More About Situation in Gaza at:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7545636.stm

'Palestine is still The issue' - Articles by John Pilger

http://www.johnpilger.com/page.asp?partid=16

 

Thanks for info, post updated...

Thanks heaps for that info Richard, I have updated my post with Auckland and Dunedin info:

http://freegaza.nzactivist.org/

i attended the chch gathering

i attended the chch gathering on sat, we made quite a bit of noise in the square, the speakers were constructive, and there was some informal positive chat afterwards.

a key point for me is - we can demand that the international community investigate the events - but who are we referring to ? we all need to be more aware of the world we are living in.. especially if we are saying that this situation is unacceptable. we need to become more aware of the historical events and present consciousness that allows for these situations to continue. in other words we are all responsible for the world we live in.

i have an important question to ask ..

whose idea was it to burn the flags of israel and the u.s.a ? and why ..

is this really what we want to portray - of course thats all the mainstream media focused on last night - as well as all the anger.

i went to the chch gathering with love for the human family, and i felt that amongst the people who attended. this is especially what the middle east region needs.

living in nz we have relative freedom of movement and expression - sure it could be much better - but our basics of living are pretty much assured. the people living in nz have the chance to unite, commune, gather, and utilise the resources we have to - first help ourselves - and therefore assist those around the world by example. 

we need to love ourselves, our land, our people, this is the example - the energy that can transform the middle east.  flag burning is a valid expression but it only inflames the issue - to me it symbolises hatred.. which is exactly what has caused this situation to start with.

nick lyons

Flag burning and other "symbolic excesses"

Well the burning of flags is quite a common practice during many protests all over the world. You are right in questioning this, because it is nothing much more than a symbolic expression of anger about the conduct of a country that is represented by the flag.

Truth is that populations in countries are diverse, and that applies also to the USA and Israel. So sending such messages can to some degree be considered questionable or even detrimental.

It will certainly tend to polarise matters of disagreement.

As for the Israeli flag it does to many represent the "Zionist State", which some question of having a right to exist in the form it does. It is clear that there has been a lot of injustice committed against Palestinians under that flag, so not much love is lost amongst them and their supporters for Israel.

I noted the large number of obviously muslim and middle eastern attendants to the protest in Auckland.

Presently we are justifiably looking very critically at Israel, the atrocities committed during the pirate like attack and seizure of the aid convoy vessels. We shold not forget though what Hamas stands for, that that organisation is hardly democratic after having fought it out with Fatah in the Gaza strip and driven Fatah out of there.

Today the news also reported about a hardening of anti Israeli sentiment in Egypt, where a Supreme Court Judge has upheld a claim that Egyptian men married to Israeli women (of which there are a few thousand, believe it or not) should be denied their full Egyptian citizenship and not be allowed to serve in the army of that country.

Most Arab countries are governed by corrupt and hyppocritical regimes that have not shown that much of support for the Palestinians themselves. In Saudy Arabia and the UAE Palestinians were and are exploited as cheap labourers, in Lebanon and Jordan they continue to live in ghetto-like refugee camps and face restrictions. So we should also realise this and be critical of that also.

Of course that does not justify the false claims by the Israeli government that lies when it says that it has nothing against Palestinians and does offer more help to them than any of the Arab countries.

Turkish doctors have also established that the 9 killed activists received over 30 bullet wounds, many of them were from close range shots and into the backs of their heads and bodies.

So boycotting Israeli goods, pushing for a closure of their new embassy and challenging Israeli tourists, sportspeople, exchange students, and so forth in active debate will achieve more than simply burning a few flags and throwing shoes at a building!

well said Nick

!

This is how some sick Israeli comedians make a joke of it all!

http://www.latma.co.il/Latma/Templates/showpage.asp?DBID=1&LNGID=2&TMID=99&FID=469&PlayListId=8B99644BD8FE4070

Can it get any worse? God help the human species!

Who were those retards at the

Who were those retards at the embassy in Auckland chanting like some ugly mob about Allah is great jabajabjaba. Fkin embarrasing.

They must have been Osama's cheer-leaders

Well that is the result of decades of neglect by the so-called "developed" and "western" world when it comes to the question of Palestine.

It has gone that bad now that basically the extremists of the other side do now represent the interests of the people in Gaza and the West Bank.

They are no better than the Israelis. Some of them are happy to bea jihadi of sorts.

They are meeting and praying in the mosques in this country! So be prepared for whatever, I presume.

First photos of captured and INJURED Israeli soldiers on ships

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/g.php?g=55&p=1#gallerytop

Maybe it was not all as one-sided as the activists on the Mavi Marmari claimed? The turkish paper Hurriet has released first photos of injured Israeli soldiers, obviously captured on board the ship. On one photo a large knife is clearly visible - in the hand of a bystander!

 

There are a few ways those

There are a few ways those pics can be interpretted. Who did the knife belong to? I would suspect that any captured troopers would have been searched and disarmed so there is a high likelyhood that the knife came from the stormtroopers and from that angle it does look like a commando knife. If you check picture 9 you can see that the state sponsored pirates sidearm has been removed as well.

But what the pictures do show is captured stormtroopers that are a little donged up but nevertheless alive and kicking, and their pride a little dented, unlike the protestors who got killed, executed and wounded.

But...would it be one sided if it were you?

There has been debate backwards and forwards between Israel and the aid workers about whether or not the aid workers were armed.  Israel says that it's soldiers were attacked and fired in self defense.  Many others were saying that the soldiers came on board guns blazing.  My question is, "does it really matter either way"?

You have an oppressed and downtrodden population within Gaza, without access to basic necessities such as food, medicine and building supplies.  You have a bunch of aid workers trying to bring these things to them.  If your ship is stormed by commandos from helicopters and speed boats, who are armed with guns (seriously, whether they had paintball guns or not is irrelevant - they also had live weapons) do you:

a) Let them seize the boat, confiscate the cargo and arrest and imprison everyone on board?
    OR
b) Assume the worst (after all there are armed commandos storming the ship) and try to defend yourselves and the cargo that you are trying to carry to help those in need?

Clearly that depends on how much of a pacifist you are, but I think it's a very hard case to make that it was wrong for those people to defend themselves.  On the other hand, the Israeli claim that the soldiers only fired in self defense is patently ridiculous and akin to an intruder breaking into your home in the middle of the night...you fight to defend yourself and your family...they kill you...and then claim they killed you in self defense.

Whether the soldiers fired first or not is simply not relevant.  The reality is they were the aggressors.  They were armed, they were in international waters, and they stormed the ships with the intention of blocking humanitarian aid and detaining those on board.  When you are the aggressor, the initiator of the violence, you don't get to make a claim of self defense.

As if Israel didn't look ridiculous enough with it's actions, it went on to say that the aid workers were armed with slingshots, pipes and knives and that this clearly showed that they weren't peaceful aid workers, but were violent activists trying help Hamas.  Seriously?  They are trying to help Hamas fight against Israel?  With slingshots and pipes and knives?

I declare all of this debate about who fired first to be folly.

It is most certainly a

It is most certainly a diversion from the reality of the situation to be arguing who fired first, if that is what people here are doing.

Most ships around the world, hold a cache of arms for defending themselves against piracy. The fact that no firearms were found on board shows the calibre of integrity these aid activists have in going into the killing zone that is international waters surrounding Israel and Gaza.

This was a slaughter by Israeli Shayetet 13 special forces who fired into the bodies of aid workers until many of them were dead. These troops are trained killers, who would have been insensed that they were instructed to use 'less lethal' paintball weapons and probably instructed to shoot to wound should they be attacked, and it doesn't take much thought to work out that they would have taken any opportunity to claim that the threshold had been crossed in terms of their personal safety giving them the green light to 'got hot', and in typical special forces fashion, started with the shoot to wound policy, then went 'fuck this' and began dropping anyone that presented themselves within their field of reference with a double tap center mass killing spree.

The commandos that dropped on the other ships will probably be disappointed that they missed out of the feeding frenzy their mates had as there is one thing all those special forces type killers need to do on a regular basis, and thats kill...

Ex 'Sayeret Matkal' special forces and now PM of Israel, Benjamin Netanyahu who was raised in Philly in the US and returned to Israel to join the Sayeret Matkal, will be scratching his head as to why there the world is not supporting the actions of his killers aboard the floatilla.

The Sayeret Matkal and Shayetet 13 have been the main units used for torture, maiming, murdering, assassinations and sabotage in the occupied territories and have always managed to pull off their killings in the past by shifting the blame to their victims. No doubt they will be rethinking their strategies and refining them for future operations.

By the way is anyone asking why the Shayetet 13were sent in on this occasion rather than the usual police special units. The Shayetet 13 are not trained in crowd control, they are trained to kill, assassinate and to plant bombs. Its a bit like sending dracula into a blood bank to collect 'blood samples'.

The change in tactic to use the Shayetet 13, from their past tactics can only be translated as a determination to change the outcomes from the previous outcomes of previous ships boarded.

I just joined this forum and

I just joined this forum and I'm wondering how "independent" the thinking really is here.  From what I can tell none of us were there, so how can we really know what happened?  By reading the other media?  I thought you were independent?

  I want to hear the other side of the story.

Israel sure sounds heavy-handed on this one, but these victims were "activists" carrying aid.  They are not neutral people.  They are opposed to Israel.  Since when did activists deliver aid without expecting trouble??

Please show me the documents and videos of Palestinians encouraging their people to put differences aside and make peace with Israel.

For a charity, try Red Cross or ADRA - no political bias and not seen to be by the warring sides.

Please show me the documents

Please show me the documents and videos of Palestinians encouraging their people to put differences aside and make peace with Israel

If only it were just that simple, someone to blame, the Palestinians...holding up the peace process by refusing to accept that wall around the prison camp that is Gaza. Why do you talk independent thinking and then immediately dive into the us vs them simplified version of reality.

Since when did activists deliver aid without expecting trouble??

Do you think this has been the only groups of ships intercepted by Israeli forces for delivering aid to Gaza? There is no guarantee anymore that aid workers whether red cross or red cresent or other, will not be attacked whether intentionally or accidently as they go about their aid work. That is why all aid workers are issued bullet proof vests now when entering hot zones (if you check some of the images that the IDF released you can see the red cresent symbols on the bullet proof vests they discovered on the ships).

In fact this goes back to WW2 when British bombers returned to bomb Dresden for the second time, then the US bombings arriving much later timing their attack to 'mop up' the clean up operation, when in fact it was a perfectly timed bombing run to mop up aid workers bringing aid to the survivors.

Israel sure sounds heavy-handed on this one...

Maybe I am being biassed here, but wouldn't, 'reckless actions resulting in an egregious violation of international law' better assess the situation?

For a charity, try Red Cross or ADRA

Somehow I think the idea of sending in an aid agency claiming neutrality while bearing a red painted version of the symbol of the cross of Christ is probably not the best idea. Surely you must mean The Red Crescent arm of the international federation who are the usual aid workers that do this type of thing?

I thought you were

I thought you were independent?

I want to hear the other side of the story.

To carry on this conversation, I want to pick up on this point of yours again slightmiracle.

The 'other side of the story', as in the Israeli version, came out last week, since that was the only game in town after the IDF took control of the situation. After confiscating all the video cameras and jamming the airways so that the aid workers and activists could not send video footage via wireless satelite or other methods, that left the IDFs video footage and their version of events as the only visual record of what transpired.

So if you did truthfully want to hear the other side of the story, then what you are reading here is snippets from the other side.

For your information, the Gazans were driven from Ishdud to the Gaza strip in 1948 by Israeli forces who then changed the name of the town from Ishdud to Ashdod. Recent events have seen Israel build a wall around Gaza and according to an Israeli spokeman, tonnes of food and supplies are being trucked into Gaza daily countering claims in a UN report that detailed the rapid deterioration of livelihoods, food security, education, health, shelter, energy and water and sanitation inside Gaza.

One and a half million people now held as quasi prisoners, most of them unemployed as there is no industrial life left in Gaza due to the embargo resulting in 3900 industries closing, and over 80% of the population live on less than $5.00NZD per day.

Gaza has become a disaster zone and the world powers are doing nothing about it. The US goes along with it, the EU is no different, not to mention Tony Blair the "peacemaker".

Complicit to a certain extent in the seize and starvation of the people of Gaza is Hamas who take $600,000,000 NZD a year in taxes from food and supplies brought in through the tunnel systems and so lack the motivation to end the seige themselves or lose their income.

The other group profiteering from this are the Egyption businessmen who are charging absorbitant prices for goods and food, and tunnel security where much of the security cash is used to pay off the Israeli forces not to destroy the Egyptian side of the tunnels via aerial bombardment.

So it is certainly not a case of choosing one side or the other. Neither the Israeli or Hamas military groups have any respect for the lives of civilians, and there is a clear third side of this, that of the people of Gaza who are suffering.

The real moral issue to me is that there is almost no other people in the entire world could be treated in the way the Palestinians are being treated. Its the silence on the part of these organisations and countries that claim to be the forefront of humanitarianism that is the real deafening noise here.

This is because those doing the seiging, mass imprisonment and slow starvation are Israelis for which the world has felt it necessary to turn a blind eye to because of the recent holocaust for which we are all familiar with.

This problem could be fixed by these world leaders by sending in a huge contingient to administer the area, stopping Hamas from firing rockets into Israel, and stopping Israel from bombing Gaza and carrying out politcal assassinations in the Gaza area, and of course, pulling down the wall, but they won't fix it for the reasons I stated.

So it is in the light of this little bit of history and background that we have independent flotillas from countries like Turkey who are trying to get aid into Gaza to relieve the humanitarian crisis that is in full swing there with the full support of the Red Cresent which is the Arab wing of the international aid federation that includes your non-politically aligned Red Cross.

Israeli Views

I make a point of reading and viewing the Israeli perspective as well.  I often find it more convincing than the Palestinian one.

I do know it is almost impossible to find an unbiased media organization in the world today.  The media control the thinking of many people, and most journalists seem to be left-wing and supporters of the Palestinian cause.  Muslims are good at using the media to present their ideology and "victimhood."  Unfortunately some of them are stupid - faking hate crimes, etc. 

Muhammad said, “If I take an oath and later find something else better, I do what is better and break my oath.” He also encouraged Muslims to do the same.  So deception is standard practice and to be admired.  Suicide bombers are venerated as heroes in Palestinian schools.  How can this kind of carry-on ever reverse the impasse?  Is it OK to breed terrorists?

In what order should the barriers to peace be dismantled?  Tear down the wall, THEN stop the missiles?  Perhaps the "peace activists" are doing more harm than good!  They ought to do some talking to their Palestinian friends to try to stop the missiles instead of feeding the terrorists!

Apparently the "Rachel Corrie" was significantly named, according to someone on this forum. I never heard of Rachel Corrie before, but a simple Google search seems to show that the lady (now a martyr) was defending a weapons smuggling tunnel disguised as a water well.  Was she a "peace" activist too?

There is plenty of stuff written from the pro-Israel lobby that the presence of Muslims in Palestine is illegal too.  So I guess we shouldn't hold our breath for peace there. 

We all believe what we want to believe.

I make a point of reading and

I make a point of reading and viewing the Israeli perspective as well. I often find it more convincing than the Palestinian one.

I think it has been a long time since both political sides put out perspectives in their news reporting. What you call perspectives is just plain propaganda by both Israel and Hamas, the same goes for the way they both treat civilians on the opposing sides.

Apparently the "Rachel Corrie" was significantly named, according to someone on this forum. I never heard of Rachel Corrie before, but a simple Google search seems to show that the lady (now a martyr) was defending a weapons smuggling tunnel disguised as a water well.  Was she a "peace" activist too?

Thanks for the perfect case of propaganda, this time from the Israeli propaganda machine.

The media control the thinking of many people, and most journalists seem to be left-wing and supporters of the Palestinian cause.

This actually is a perspective that runs right through the propaganda the Israeli military have been broadcasting for ever. Yet reality could not be further from the truth. The media has actually come across as just supporting the common misconceptions of the issues in Gaza. They speak of a Gaza that doesn't actually exist in that format, therefore almost every observation whether romantically 'for' or 'against' each side is usually based on lies created by these two enemies.

There is plenty of stuff written from the pro-Israel lobby that the presence of Muslims in Palestine is illegal too.

Another piece of lies perpetrated from the Israeli propaganda machine.

What activists need to do is cease making judgement calls based on propaganda lies. There are no good guys and bad guys in that area for people to take political sides on, its all horseshit that comes from the mouths of Hamas and from the mouths of Israel.

Watching those two enemies fight is a bit like watching the race between the tortoise and the rabbit, Hamas being the tortoise obviously, bombing the Ashdod civilian areas in slowmo, and Israel being the rabbit who can play catch up and far outbomb Hamas in the Gazan civilian area.

Meanwhile, there is a distinctive third group there that always gets aligned to Hamas, and is currently being slowly starved to death by the Israeli imprisonment of 1.5 million people.

So I guess we shouldn't hold our breath for peace there. 

Totally agree, but you if you hold your breath long enough you will start to see 1.5 million peoples physical and mental health take a dump.

So 'in the meantime', food and supplies need to get through to that area that does not come from the tunnels, doesn't cost a bag of gold to buy a loaf of bread, thus creating less dependency on the tunnel markets, less dependency on Hamas security at the tunnels, less taxes to Hamas, less taxes to the Egyptian profiteers on the other end of the tunnels, and less bribe money to the Israeli airforce....and is delivered at a supply rate that helps keep people fed and clothed during the seige.

I tended to have some sympathy with Israel, but I learnt more

I tended to have some sympathy with Israel, but I learnt more about the situation in Israel, Palestine and the Middle East over the years. So I cannot agree at all with your comments.

My sympathies for Hamas are very limited I may say, but I have even less for the hypocrisy of Israel.

The truth is that the state of Israel has no legal right under international law to exist! It established itself by force and against UN resolutions. Then it has over decades and after repeated wars with Arab neighbouring countries annexed territories that it has settled against international law with illegal settlements (namely the West Bank and Gaza Strip).

The population there objected strongly against this, same as for the fact of hundreds of thousands of Palestinians having been driven off their lands after 1948! This lead to wars and the intifada.

Certainly I do not condone the terror attacks that were committed and killed hundreds of Israelis. The Palestinians did though see no other way of resisting the injustices suffered. It was a wrong, appalling and non-sensical policy by Palestinian extremists to commit such acts. I feel that most have now realised this.

Otherwise who does amongst western governments and politicians raise the true issues that led to all this? Few do, and they are constantly being black-mailed with the argument of "anti Semitism", the "Shoa", etc..

Israel has proved to be somewhat similar to Nazi Germany, basing their right of existance on race matters, a history of "heritage" from 2000 years ago, and so forth. Arab Israelis are treated as second class citizens, Palestinians get treated even worse. Israel even "imported" cheap workers from Thailand to do menial work, because they did not like and trust to employ Palestinians.

Talk about racism, apartheid and so forth, nowadays Israel comes to mind straight away!

I have met many Israelis and Jews. Gladly some Israelis do not agree with the government they have, and some even have sympathy with Palestinians. They are a minority though, and they will be treated as second or third class people for as long as this state of Israel will exist.

So I can only call "Down with Zionism"!

Well come on, we all know the truth!

The only way true peace can be established in Israel or Palestine, whatever you wish to call it, is by having one state to accommodate all in a peaceful, re-conciled and equal manner. This state can only be a non-religious state that allows though freedom of religion and worship at all the places of known worship. Israel and the Occupied Territories are in a sense a microcosm of the globe. We have rich and poor, powerful and less powerful, right and wrong, whatever one wishes to interpret it like. So we will never get any true peace unless both sides agree that they can only survive together and respect each other. Can this be done? In an idealistic society it can. But we live in a world of envy, competition, mistrust, hatred, records of past rights and wrongs kept, so I truly see only a vague chance of this to succeed. The dispute about water is already there and will get worse. That is between Israel and neighbouring states, as well as with West Bank territories. Do we have population control to help support the argument of peaceful sharing? No we do not! The Gaza territory has one of the highest birth rates in the world, despite of the poverty there and the overpopulation there. Even the West Bank is more densely populated (over 300 persons per square km) than virtually all areas in densely populated Europe. Talk about revolution, socialism, the rights of people and so forth, do any of you here ever study the facts of economics, social and strategic realities? I doubt this very much! There is only ONE solution, which I am afraid NEITHER side want. So the answer will be WAR and annihilation! The Zionists learnt well from the very people that persecuted and suppressed them before, namely Hitler and the Nazis!

Israel and the Occupied

Israel and the Occupied Territories are in a sense a microcosm of the globe. We have rich and poor, powerful and less powerful, right and wrong, whatever one wishes to interpret it like.

It is good to see people concerned about finding peace in the middle east.

For the people of Gaza, their issue is bigger than issues of religion and poverty and I think it is easy to gloss over the circumstances that surround that humanitarian disaster. As I wrote above, the Palestinians that are now in Gaza come from a place just north of Gaza called Isdud which is now called Ashdod if you want to find it on the map.

The parents and grandparents of many of those that are now in Gaza were forced from their land in 1948 by advancing Israeli forces as they encircled the Egyptian armies. So aside from what Hamas has been doing in firing rockets into Ashdod, the issue still remains prominent in the minds of Gazans concerning the place now called Ashdod which was owned by many of the people and parents of the people that now live in the area called Gaza. Isdud was then made a part of Israel and there has really not been much more in the western media about the dispossession of their land and forced removal since then.

So before any solution can be considered, the history and issue at heart for the people of Gaza must first be recognised, named for what it is. Funny that we flippantly use the term ethnic cleansing in almost every situation it occurs until its applied to Gaza where other terms like 'relocation', or the passive 'depopulation' apparently aptly describe the events that took place, when in reality it was ethnic cleansing.

The next logical step for any budding trail blazing peacemaker is justice for that people dispossessed from the lands of Isdud. This is a humanitarian issue in Gaza not a political issue where there are two sides that need to come together. In order for justice to occur, the US must remove its uncritical support for Israel and allow a third party to step in and administrate justice for the people of Gaza.

Unweaponising Hamas, removing the prison wall around Gaza, and stopping military and intelligence support for Israel is critical but that isn't going to happen while the west continues to treat this issue as a simplified issue of sides while ignoring the injustices that kicked this whole thing off and remain at the core of Gazan belief systems, and, while the US Government farcically believes that Israel is fighting the US war on terror on their behalf in Gaza which is just garbage.

It is because these things need to take place before there will be lasting peace in Gaza, that we will not see this in our lifetimes. Seeking peace by any other means is to subject that people to further abuse.

In the meantime the best activists can do is to go and take food and supplies into Gaza by any means possible while bringing the plight of those people to the western worlds attention. I say that because the issues surrounding the ethnic cleansing from Isdud are everyday stories told on non-western world media outlets, its just in the west that the media is primarily promoting this alternative reality about the war on terror concerning Gaza and the wider middle east.

A related point is something Robert Fisk pointed out recently, would be the repeated use by the Israeli PM of one of the names of the ships in the flotilla, an Irish ship called the MV Rachel Corrie. The Israeli PM was not the only one to mention the name of that ship. How many western media outlets bothered to give a backgrounder to where that ship got its name from. Arab media outlets certainly covered it in length and the name is not lost on activists working in the Palestinian areas, but most people will have never heard of Rachel.

Its this type of ignorance of reality, history and recognition of the human cost, that shows me there is no light at the end of this long dark tunnel and that the humanitarian disaster is only going to worsen as people a polarised to the two sides of a three sided coin.

In my view the Israel

In my view the Israel government does not care. Key point for me is - we can demand that the international community investigate the events. f we are saying that this situation is unacceptable. We need to become more aware of the historical events. It is not good.

Double Standards

Israeli soldiers kill 9 terrorists in self defence and they are demonized as per usual. Yet over the last ten years 6 million people are dead in the Democratic Republic of Congo. 1,200 people die every day but no one questions the legitimacy of the Congo, arguably the most barbaric, dysfunctional country on the face of the earth.

The U.N. barely notices Congo.

And all the so-called peace activists on the left who wail and gnash their teeth about non-existent Israeli atrocities are criminally silent when it comes to authentic war crimes; the oceans of innocent blood barely registers in their collective conscience.

You know why?

Because there are no Jews in Congo.

Because Congo is not the Jewish State.

Because anti-Zionism is the new Jew-hatred.

Because Jews were despised when they did not have a state, and now they are despised because they do have a state.

Israel's enemies are not interested in human rights. They are interested in the destruction of the Jewish State, the extermination of the Jewish people.

That is the reality.

so criticism of israel is not

so criticism of israel is not allowed?  jewish history gives them a shield against criticism of their state terror?  it is a trick to equate criticism of israel with anti-zionism.  don't be so damn paranoid.

9 terrorists?  yeah right.  peaceful protesters dufus.

Criticism of Israel?

Radsicle,

The post you replied to doesn't say criticism of Israel is not allowed.  it says be consistent.  The poster is not paranoid, just pee-d off.

I was amazed to see over the weekend, pictures of a Palestinian mass wedding.  The brides were all about 10 years old!  I mean at least thirty of them!

This paedophilia is justified on "cultural" grounds, when it is really a lack of culture!

I am amazed to think of so many Kiwis supporting this kind of stuff rather than being honest about what Israel is doing in self-defense.

I was amazed to see over the

I was amazed to see over the weekend, pictures of a Palestinian mass wedding.  The brides were all about 10 years old!  I mean at least thirty of them!

This paedophilia is justified on "cultural" grounds, when it is really a lack of culture!

I am amazed to think of so many Kiwis supporting this kind of stuff rather than being honest about what Israel is doing in self-defense.

So do you believe on that basis that Israel has the moral high ground to lock a million or so people in the turning of Gaza into a quasi-concentration camp and put them on food rations until they vote Hamas out?

It's called a strawman

It's called a strawman argument, take a point that has nothing to do with your argument then dress it up however you want to make you point seem valid. You do notice they don't actually even back up their own strawman with any corroberating evidence...

For sure, these replies are

For sure, these replies are certainly red herrings. There is no back up for false assertions other than more false assertions, its just depressing at times to read that us and them fallacy being bandied about as some form of ipse dixitist assertion of fact.

It's called a strawman argument, take a point that has nothing to do with your argument then dress it up however you want to make you point seem valid. You do notice they don't actually even back up their own strawman with any corroberating evidence...

To 'Slightmiracle' and other Liars trying to use this forum!

Yes, while we are talking about "double standards" and even out-right lies: Whatever you try to claim there is truly dirty lies and misleading readers here.

Just inform yourself a bit more objectively and more balanced by sourcing more reliable stories. It helps to look at various sources, to compare the supposed reports, analyse them and do proper research.

http://wwsword.blogspot.com/2009/09/child-brides-in-palestine-bullshit.html

http://www.hoax-slayer.com/mass-muslim-marriage.shtml

 

Israeli soldiers kill 9

Israeli soldiers kill 9 terrorists in self defence and they are demonized as per usual.

I think it is time to rewrite the ten commandments in the form of international law to help plebs like myself out, so I thought I'd kick the ball off.

1: Thou shall have no other gods before the God of Israel other than the god of Capitalism.

2: Thou shall remember that all little Palestinians eventually all grow up to be big terrorists.

3: Thou shalt not commit ethnic clensing however clensing Gaza is permitted.

4: Thou shall remember that blood makes grass grow in the barren lands of Gaza.

5: Phosphorous artillery shall only be permitted to be used on Gazan urban areas.

6: Thou shalt not attempt to hold Israel to the same human rights standards other countries are held to.

7: Thou shall label all of Israels military enemies and political dissidents as 'them', and as 'terrorists', likewise thou shalt label any that support Israel as 'us' and as 'good'.

8: Any criticism of Israel shall be seen as furthering the crimes committed against Jews during the holocaust.

9: Thou shalt not accuse Israel of the crime of apartheid even though their actions may in every way resemble that of someone committing the crime of apartheid.

10: Thou shall make every effort believe that every bomb that was dropped on airports, roads, bridges, power stations, hospitals and high rise buildings in Lebanon and Gaza were intended for terrorists, those that oppose Israel.

Once we all get on with living by these 10 commandments, I think the world will be a better place....well...not for the Palestinians per se....but you get my point.

Hating Israel

These types of post only prove Lucas correct.  It is clear that Israel is to be hated no matter what rationale is presented.  You keep saying, "thou shalt not question Israel's stigma."

Just answer the challenge!  Justify your positions.

You expect us to believe your "facts" but you call other people's "facts" propaganda.

My comment about child-brides is to show the standard of normal in Palestine.  There are plenty more uncivilized practises accepted in Palestine which "peace activists" turn a blind eye to (blinded by their hatred for Israel I guess).  Some we never even heard of, I'm sure.  Peace begins inside people's heads!  How can people with so much hatred ever dream of making peace happen?

As I said, we all believe what we want to believe.

I think you should change the name of your website.  It sure isn't independent!

It is clear that Israel is to

It is clear that Israel is to be hated no matter what rationale is presented.

No human rights activist in their right mind would hate Israel in the way you frame it, but many people are no longer turning a blind eye to the Israeli Governments war crimes and its manufacturing of consent to continue its broad ill-treatment of the Palestinian people under the guise of attacking its enemy Hamas and/or carrying out the US war on terrorism in its area.

You expect us...

The us and them position you have taken on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza is slightly nauseating, and its 100% pure unadulterated propagandist horseshit slightmiracle, so you can stop trying to dress it up as anything more than what it is mate.

I have heard more balanced analysis from biassed Israeli reporters than the stuff you are spouting here.

So 'give peace a real chance' and engage your own brain and critically analyse the situation for yourself minus the emotive propaganda being hourly piped into your living room via the mainstream media.

Talk about DOUBLE STANDARDS!

While we are talking about "double standards" - just bear in mind how many people were killed on either side in operation cast lead in Gaza just over a year ago!

Over at least 1,200 Gazans - some figures go above 1,300 - of which most were civilians and many women and children, were actually killed by the IDF over the 2 or more weeks of supposed "combat" and the invasion.

13 Israelis IN TOTAL were killed on the Israeli side!

White phosphorus projectiles were shot into residential areas in very densely populated Gaza then, which are internationally not allowed to be used against civilians or in civilian areas by the IDF!

So carry on with your whining about hipocrisy.

The scandal is that Israel likes to count itself to the developed world and DEMOCRATIC countries upholding human rights.

Only few people will accept that the Congo is truly democratic, or that certain private armies operating there are respecting human rights.

So Congo, Ruanda, Myanmar and other countries do also get their attention, but of recent we had this incident of 9 activists on an aid convoy ship being shot by Israeli special units at close range, many from the back, that was discussed here.

Take your blinkers off and wake up out of your "pro Zionist" dream zone!

Re: Double Standards

It does'nt matter whether it was before,now or after the terrorist flotilla incident, you people will always condemn Israel. You will always be silent about the real atrocities in the world because in reality human rights are not the real issue for you, Israel is. You would'nt know a human right if you tripped over one.

So, I gues for you its about...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wIp8PcZxXYQ

Oh, before I forget, here is an educational video about the true humanitarian crisis in Gaza. Geeeez, how come we don't have markets like that here!?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCRJrdCowMc

MOSSAD SPY CALLED LUCAS!

Ha - you are as good as Goebbels once was and as the Zionist spy and spin masters of today are doing their jobs!

Are you on the payroll of Mossad by the way?

 

Radical's Paranoia

Me thinks you neglected to take your meds today. You obviously have more in common with Goebbels than I do.

Lucas, the attrocities

Lucas, the attrocities committed against Jews in many European countries not just Germany is important and at times needs to be reaffirmed and yes we have to be reminded of it but in no way should that interfere with the rights of another people to justice, to food, shelter, water and supplies.

What I know of the history of the formation of the state of Israel begins during the time of intense nationalism in Europe, many leaders in many countries saw the ethnonationalist Jews as a wart that needed removing and therefore antisemitism became rampant, culminating their nationalism and combined militarism into expansionism and eventually the European nationalist and expansionlist wars in the 19th century known as WW1 and WW2.

It was during that time as well that antisemitism boiled over in other states as well where many nationalised states asked the question of what to do about the Jews, which in terms of Germany, is covered much in the teachings of Friedrich Ruhs, Wagner, Fries and Hartwig Hunt, along with the writings of Duhring and Stocker all proposed extermination as the solution which Hitler took up at a later date.

The Jewish issue was also a matter of concern in other countries as well, notably the British who composed the British Mandate for Palestine with the intention of negotiating a place for Jews where it was stated that,

"it being clearly understood that nothing should be done which might prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country..."

The original intention was for there to be Jewish settlements dotted within the western area of Palestine in areas that would be considered Jewish autonomous areas, notably because there were Jews already occupying those areas, however that eventually grew and grew into the final plan to partition Palestine.

The reaction to the UN plan was as expected a divided one.

The Jews unanomously accepted the plan and began to prepare to bring home Jews living overseas, and for war to expand into areas they believed should have been in the plan, including areas south of Te Aviv and Jerusalem.

The Palestinians rejected the plan because it gave 56% of the land to Jews who made up 7% of the population, and because the partition meant that 45% of the Palestinian population would then come under Israeli rule.

Arab states surrounding Palestine were obviously opposed to the plan and no sooner had the UN General Assembly voted in the partition plan (for which NZ voted in support of), the sounds of their war drums began to be heard.

First up and often not known after the UN General Assembly voted in the partition plan, was the recognition of the state of Israel by the US and other countries shortly after the UN plan was agreed to, but also noted was their later refusal to recognise the Palestinian state, the other part of the UN partition plan they had voted for.

Finally after much maneuvering came the withdrawal of British troops from Palestine leaving noone in control of the area at which point war broke out seeing troops from Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon and Syria scrap it out in Palestinian areas with Jewish troops resulting, in the case of the Gazans, in the people of Isdud being driven from their lands into the area of Gaza to the south of Isdud.

It is this displacement from the agreed area of the people of Isdud into Gaza, Israels expansion into the Palestinian partitioned area and the refusal by the likes of the US to recognise the Palestinian State for which they voted for in the UN General Assembly, their unquestioned support for the State of Israel, the US Governments refusal to recognise the Isdud event as an issue requiring firstly recognition, and also justice in its attempted and farcical roadmaps to peace plans, and the myriad of human rights abuses perpetrated by the State of Israels Government into the 'non-state' areas of Gaza, these are the major causes that continue to stimulate the humanitarian crisis building in Gaza.

Various groups in the past have offered false hopes to the people of Gaza of the return of their lands in Isdud (now Asdod), the latest to offer them false hope being Hamas.

But in the meantime, while they wait for justice, they have been herded since 1948 and even up till recently, into a not too disimilar ghetto camp like the Warsaw Ghetto created for the Jews of Poland by their German occupiers, called the Gaza Strip and it is there that they remain in limbo with the false hopes offered to them by Hamas, and no hope offered by anyone else.

Lucas, thanks for taking time to search Youtube for the links, I have added them to my recycling bin where all propaganda and hate URLs go. Please pull your head out of your arse and go learn some real history about Palestine. Try books as your first stop, like, in a library, not Youtube ok.

@ Lucas and "Double Standards"

By the way where do you get your figures for 6 million killed in the Democratic of Congo for?

That would be at the ultimate and inflated level of figures available, which would also include all people dying of some kind of disease, starvation and so forth, which may only in part have been a result or consequence of the armed conflicts in part of that country.

See attached links for some more detailed and possibly more reliable information, although they themselves are to be treated with a grain of salt:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democratic_Republic_of_the_Congo

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/cg.html

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/country_profiles/1076399.stm

http://www.globalissues.org/article/87/the-democratic-republic-of-congo

 

A lot of the killings in that country did happen before the last 10 years by the way!

Youtube is a great source to

Youtube is a great source to look at.  It is truly independent.  One can look at both sides and decide for oneself.


Here's some reason from Israels' side to balance things up for you:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_hUEFJTbKbM

 

 from Israels' side to

 from Israels' side to balance things up for you

(sighs) Ok I will play along with the youtube linkathon.
Everytime you present a point that is about supposedly bringing balance to the other side of the argument concerning the issues in Gaza, you not only reinforce a false reality that does not exist in Palestine, but also the false dichotomic belief that there is only two sides to this issue, Israel vs Palestine when there are in fact more sides and parts of the equation which has been clearly pointed out to you by others in this forum. 

In fact a major part of the problem people are having in comprehending the issues in that area is because the media consistantly and at times falsely portrays that situation through the use of such things as amelioration of descriptions, and reinforcing a false dilemma of a two sided problem - Israel vs Palestine therefore much of the worlds opinions have formed within the confines of these mistaken frameworks - often far from the truth.

So keep it coming with your selective searching of Youtube, and dig that hole deeper all the way to polarised, us vs them dystopia in order to reinforce your false dilemma.

Missing The Point

The point is, why do you reserve all your activism regarding human rights issues for Gaza? Especially when it involves supporting and aiding regimes that commit atrocities against their own people.

Take the example of the Afghan school girls repeatedly attacked at school with poisonous gas:

http://english.aljazeera.net/news/asia/2010/06/2010612205232352832.html

Where is the outrage? Alas, as expected, no convoys of peace activists will be heading their way.

Yet those girls keep on going to school and are willing to give up there lives for an education. That's the type of protest that deserves admiration, respect and support.

Contrast that with the herd of sheep aboard the Mavi Marmara who let themselves be used as human shields by a terrorist backed Turkish 'aid' organisation, one cannot help but feel contempt for all the fools on board.

@K Maybe you should consider extricating your own head from out of your arse as it sounds like the pot is calling the kettle black. All you can talk about is Israel, obviously you are obsessed with it and I am sure that the mere thought of its existence makes you froth at the corners of your mouth. But the fact is, without Israel, what would you protest about?

WHERE IS YOUR BLOODY ACTION AND SENSIBLE ARGUMENTS???

WHERE IS YOUR BLOODY ACTION AND SENSIBLE ARGUMENTS???

Instead of picking some topics or issues out of the air from here and there and ranting on nonsensically about all this, where is your plan for action, where is your protest about the treatment of civilians by Taliban AND ALLIED FORCES in Afghanistan?

Stop your stupid insults and get off your own backside!

By the way - since you raise that most popular topic of yours - defending Israel and its occupation of the West Bank, the Golan Heights, the blockade of the Gaza Strip and overall the previous invasion of the territories of Palestine by Zionist settlers and colonialists - here are some more informative links that should interest you:

http://www.endtheoccupation.org/article.php?id=2492

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/index_en.html

http://corporateoccupation.wordpress.com/tag/ahava/

http://www.business-humanrights.org/Categories/Individualcompanies/A/Ahava

http://www.cpdesignmods.com/bohabayta/meshakim/Mitzpe_Shalem/default_eng...

http://www.cpdesignmods.com/bohabayta/portal/home/TheProcess_eng.asp

http://www.cpdesignmods.com/bohabayta/portal/home/default_eng.asp

http://www.cpdesignmods.com/bohabayta/portal/home/defaultMoreAboutProjec...

http://www.forward.com/articles/11991/

http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Home

You will see the map of GREATER ISRAEL being shown on some websites of settlement agencies and so forth, which makes clear the true agenda behind the Zionist Movement and the settlers in the Occupied Territories!

So since you defend that we do surely know where you come from!

What was the name of the

What was the name of the terrorist backed Turkish 'aid' organisation Lucas?

IHH

IHH - Foundation for Human Rights and Freedoms and Humanitarian Relief

Aid organisations and help for Gaza

See for yourselves - all those that want information from or about that organisation itself:

http://www.ihh.org.tr/filistin/en/

http://www.ihh.org.tr/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IHH_%28%C4%B0nsani_Yard%C4%B1m_Vakf%C4%B1%29

There are many "aid organisations", some of whom focus on helping people and victims from particular backgrounds. That in itself does not need to be bad.

Even if this organisation is "Islamic", has some contacts to Hamas and has ties to a party in Turkey, that does not mean that they are automatically "terrorists".

I look forward to other organisations joining in on the efforts to break the siege and blockade of the Gaza Strip.

What Israel does is most uncostructive and does actually only strengthen Hamas. Not all Israelis agree with what their government has done and continues to do.

YouTube is just a media venue or "vehicle" abused by many

YouTube is just a media venue or "vehicle" abused by many!

If you simply watch video clips and do not get any other well resourced, thoroughly scrutinised and researched information apart from that, then the danger is that you let yourself be "blinded" by one-sided comments and positions.

Whoever is the better "presenter" - or in some cases "manipulater" - will otherwise be more likely to succeed in convincing you.

So You Tube can be used to get visual and other information to look at, but it is no better than any TV screen or monitor of a computer.

The Israelis have some of the most expert secret services and are great manipulaters of information. Hence I am not impressed with their presentations.

What is the bloody story anyway? They send heavily armed special commandos to raid the ship, in order to seize it, and then they are "surprised" that some male activists and crew may actually decide to defend the ship from this act of de-facto privacy.

Anybody falling for that and saying the Israelis were "attacked" and "had to defend themselves" follows totally twisted logic.

YouTube is just a media venue or "vehicle" abused by many

YouTube is just a media venue or "vehicle" abused by many!

If you simply watch video clips and do not get any other well resourced, thoroughly scrutinised and researched information apart from that, then the danger is that you let yourself be "blinded" by one-sided comments and positions.

Whoever is the better "presenter" - or in some cases "manipulater" - will otherwise be more likely to succeed in convincing you.

So You Tube can be used to get visual and other information to look at, but it is no better than any TV screen or monitor of a computer.

The Israelis have some of the most expert secret services and are great manipulaters of information. Hence I am not impressed with their presentations.

What is the bloody story anyway? They send heavily armed special commandos to raid the ship, in order to seize it, and then they are "surprised" that some male activists and crew may actually decide to defend the ship from this act of de-facto privacy.

Anybody falling for that and saying the Israelis were "attacked" and "had to defend themselves" follows totally twisted logic.

IDF Boarding Ships

The IDF boarded 7 aid ships that day.  How come only one boarding ended in violence?  -Because only one team was attacked.

What does an aid ship have to hide?

So why did they attack the soldiers before they even landed on the ship?

What does an aid ship have to

What does an aid ship have to hide?

What you are emotively proposing is a "circular cause and consequence" and "demanding negative proof" fallacy bundled together.

The issue is, was the actions of the Israeli military legal and moral, considering that boarding a ship in international waters is illegal under international law.

The debate then shifts to the legality of the blockade and the legality of a blockade in international waters, and the legality of a blockade around a civilian area because of a terrorist organisation, where the opinions that have arisen in support of the blockade are in my view weak and at best highly partisan, in contrast to the emotive reality you are trying to promote here slightmiracle.

One can only guess that with

One can only guess that with Lebanons Hizbollah gone back to sleep, Hamas reduced to naught, peace with Egypt and Jordon, Iraq dealt to by the US, and Iran awaiting the inevitable bombing of the nuclear facilities built by the Shar and restarted up again recently by the Iyatollah, this will leave the Israeli war machine at a bit of an impasse.

So....time for the regime leaders to go pick a fight with yet another middle east country, this time Turkey to keep the people in Israel believing that they are under constant threat of invasion and destruction, playing on the holocaust, and driving business in Israel to keep producing their number one product - weapons for war.

First batter up to the plate is three ships from Turkey, intercepted, some of the crew killed, blame put on Al Qaeda, ok whats next? Whos the next batter up? Keepin them coming until Turkey puts its military might into the fray thus justifying all the garbage coming from the mouths of the military leaders in Israel.

The last thing Israel wants is Turkey administering the middle east once the US get the boot from there.

Reuters

Here are some images for you that have been 'thoroughly scrutinised', just in case your in danger of letting yourself be "blinded" by one-sided comments and positions:

http://zombietime.com/reuters_photo_fraud/

And looks as though they have been at it again:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/36489_Another_Cropped_Reuters_Ph...

I take it that your comment below is based on what you saw on your TV screen or possibly the internet?

"They send heavily armed special commandos to raid the ship, in order to seize it, and then they are "surprised" that some male activists and crew may actually decide to defend the ship from this act of de-facto privacy."

And with all these accusations of piracy, somewhat ironic that the Marvi Marama set sail from a part of Turkish occupied Cyprus. Not to mention Turkey itself being guilty of committing genocide against Armenians at the beginning of the 20th century. Maybe you could direct some of your activist angst in their direction?

The Red Cresent has indicated

The Red Cresent has indicated that it will be participating in future flotillas so that should make things a little more difficult for Israel in stopping aid getting through to Gaza. The ships and vehicles displaying the Red Cresent flag, like the Red Cross is protected by the Geneva Convention from being stopped and searched.

Right Wing and Pro Tea Party Sympathisers use propaganda

Right Wing and basically Pro Tea Party Sympathiser propaganda - that is all I can conclude out of your "thoroughly scrutinised" links and information.

http://zombietime.com/

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/

You simply prove to me even more that the internet does to a large degree just serve as a medium increasingly used by commercial operators with the intent of pushing products and services, as well as one-sided propaganda publishers and "opinionated people" that have an AGENDA to influence others by presenting "their version" of stories.

Having used the internet regularly for 12 or so years now, I have clearly seen the evidence of detoriaration of much of its content. Hence I will stick to what I have known to be valid sources for decades and not simply fall for any bit of argument pro or contra that certain interest or action groups put into the net.

This does not mean that some content on the net is worth reading and further studies.

Nevertheless to me you are just a "provocateur" and at least as much one sided as people from Hamas, as Ahmedinejad, as Osama bin Laden, as Kim Yong Il, as Fox News, as George W. Bush was, yes as all kinds of "extremists" and intolerant and unreasonable persons that we have to deal with.

You do probably also believe that 9/11 was all a "set up" and that conspiracy theories are true.

I have no time for such idiotic nonsense and mischiefmaking, because I know certain individuals like you that would never accept reason and a balanced discussion.

The fact that you do once again throw in yet another picked argument, re why the aid convoy came from Turkey and that that country has in the past been responsible for "genocide" itself, proves exactly, that you just want to throw around arguments and are not at all interested in objective information or debate.

Media and who may be behind it - possibly a little "biased"?!

I have a little other alternative for you to look at and hopefully also READ. It may not be the most enlightened source, but is from my point of view much more balanced, researched and objective than what you refer to as sources:

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/Voices.php/2009/03/19/six-jewish-com...

http://www.thepeoplesvoice.org/TPV3/index.php

But as already said, it takes a bit more than downloading video clips, articles, opinions and whatever else from the internet to inform oneself as best as possible. I leave it to the individual to chose what to do and what not to do.

If a majority of ignorant and brainwashed will set the pace for the future, and if this leads to my rights being infringed, then I will certainly know what action is needed.

Biased?

It does not matter where the images were posted, the source was from Routers and the images speak for themselves. Of course, someone like you would never use you your own eyes to see the obvious.They are permanently glued shut.

So why do you display selective moral outrage towards Israel? You have already shown, in your comments, that you can quite happily rationialise the victims of genocide in Congo with numbers. Not enough dead bodies to warrant your attention.

Why is it so difficult for you to be honest with yourself? Most terrorists are, they make their genocidal motivation quite clear. Your motivation has nothing to do with Human Rights, it is purely political.

In a widely viewed investigative television report last week titled “Questionable Peace Mission, German Leftists on Ship with Turkish Islamists and Right-Wing Extremists,” Report Mainz showed that radical Islamists with a history of violence had been on board the Mavi Marmara. Members of the Great Union Party (Büyük Birlik Partisi) a radical nationalistic Islamic party, traveled on the Mavi Marmara. According to Islam expert Michael Kiefer, who was quoted in the broadcast, the Great Union Party has similar views, within a German context, to the neo-Nazi National Democratic Party. When confronted with the list of radical Islamic passengers, including members of the Great Union Party, Groth told Report Mainz that she was not the right person to ask and walked away from the camera." http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=178448

The Israeli government is a

The Israeli government is a terrorist state Government who have committed untold crimes against humanity in the name of national security and necessity. I don't care anymore to hear their side of this tragedy as much as I myself don't give a shit about why the Nazis gassed the Jews or any excuses they had for justifying their actions, same goes for the Israeli Government.

So parlez vous francais, sprichst Du Deutsch, hablamos espanol,?

So parlez vous francais, sprichst Du Deutsch, hablamos espanol? Kiaora, Namaste, konichi wa or Nihao!

Get onto board with some more bloody arguments pro Zionist and pro Israel, so I can bloody well take you on with it!!!!!

Biased!

Well Lucas, you appear to have a loving for the arch conservative Israeli media, so I am not suprised that you refer to the Jerusalem Post for information.

If indeed Reuters has used wrong or somehow "adulterated" photos, then this is very strange, because that news organisation was actually founded by a German Jew by the name of Julius Reuter, whose father was also a Rabbi.

Hence with such a background I am sure that Reuters has clearly a bias AGAINST Israel, does it not?

Further to your criticism and allegations that there were news reports in the German television media about alleged extremists from Turkey having been on board the Mavi Marmara: The report does indeed allege that members of the BBP were on board.That party may have some past record where some form of "islamist" goals were pursued, and where they may have been associating with more "radical" political groups from Turkey.

The report though also makes clear that the Left Party members from Germany were assured, that those few members of that group that were on the ship were allowed to join the flotilla only after ensuring that they would take part on a non violent basis. Re the IHH some claim it is an aid organisation with "islamist" ideas, other sources rubbish this, by saying that they believe in Islam but help non Muslims also.

Contrary to what you may think, there are even many Jewish people volunteering to take part in future aid convoys to the Gaza Strip. So perhaps have a look at the following link to the more reliable and more balanced Israeli newspaper called Haaretz:

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/german-jews-indundated-with-requests...

Since you like to refer to German media reports, I can assure you that I speak and understand a few languages, of which German happens to be one. I viewed that report by online video clip and have made my own conclusions.

Here is the original if you wish to take your leisure to also see it:

http://www.swr.de/report/-/id=233454/did=6481392/pv=video/nid=233454/qsb...

In the Jerusalem Post article there is reference to a German FDP member apparently laying charges against two Left Party members for associating with "anti semitic" groups, hence calling them "anti-semitic". That FDP party is comparable to the ACT party here in NZ and has a few "nutcases" in it too!

Since his own party members from the local branch he "used to belong to" have disassociated themselves from him and his actions, I would not give that person much credit.

Any person can lay a complaint to the police, whether it is of any substance and leads to something is another matter.

Certainly the former communist or socialist SED party of former East Germany was never "anti semitic", and the so-called "Left Party" that formed itself out of the reformed SED follow-up party and another alternative political grouping a few years ago, can hardly be considered "anti semitic" either.

Not much value and weight has been given to this news report in Germany, where you have many more media outlets than in NZ, and where you also have various journalists (e.g. "Report Mainz" producers) trying to present some supposedly "exciting" stories with some supposedly "new revelations".

So do not expect me to be convinced by any of the stuff that you have so far posted here!

The Jerusalem Post link to "your" story:

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=178448

Bias

As I stated above, why the selective moral outrage? What is your motivation? Human rights or is it political?

"Movements which claim to be revolutionary and liberationist, which instead are quickly revealed to be oppressive and elitist, reveal a fundamental hypocrisy. And grand hypocrisy in the ideals of a movement demonstrate its unworkability. In a political movement, hypocrisy may similarly be described as a divergence between words and actions. When words and actions dramatically diverge, it means that the stated purpose of a movement is not its real purpose..."

Your arguments are shallow to say the least. You assume that Reuters should be biased because it was 'founded by a German Jew'. If you did your homework you would know who owns the majority of Reuters, of which not much is known at all. What points to bias are the images themselves which show a lack of objectivity within a media organisation. Quite clear who the bias is against. Not unusual.

"Contrary to what you may think, there are even many Jewish people volunteering to take part in future aid convoys to the Gaza Strip." I would not categorise the organization 'Jewish Voices for a Just Peace' as 'many Jewish people'. More like a rag tag bunch of motley appeasers. The majority of those that live in Israel support their governments actions.

However, it may warm your heart to know that other causes seem just as popular with volunteers:

"Student Union chairman Boaz Torporovsky, who has been leading the reverse flotilla charge, told The Jerusalem Post on Monday, “Hundreds of people have volunteered for the flotilla, and many more are contacting us all the time for ways they can help.

“Our plan is to deliver much-needed humanitarian assistance to the Kurds of Turkey, who by the way outnumber Israelis and Palestinians combined,” he said…

Another sea-bound venture is being organized in an effort to draw attention to Turkey’s own controversial policies – this time to Cyprus, to “call for an end to the Turkish occupation” of the island’s northern half – and is being organized by Meretz activist Pinchas Har-Zahav, and his son Haim, who has also signed on for the voyage…"

Your sources are no more reliable or balanced than mine, so it is pointless pontificating about how righteous they are. You reveal yourself to be nothing more than the usual sanctimonius hypocritical bigot sidestepping the question.

Why the selective outrage?

Stop talking sh** here - what is the topic?!!!

Stop talking sh** here - what is the topic?!!!

I am here commenting in relation to the headline of this thread. You constantly diverge from this, try to "expose" me as some kind of irrational radical or whatever!

Your agenda is clear. You do not share the views of other here, you are just one of those trolls seeking to create controversy for controversy's sake!

I have done my research over the years about Israel and the politics of repeated governments there, so I at least know what I am talking about.

You tend to rant on trying to push me into a corner or stick me into some kind of drawer that you have already prepared for me and others commenting here before you ever started writing here!

You are obviously either Israeli yourself or at least a total one-sided supporter of that state and the more right wing politicians in that country. Hence your repeated comments and references picked from the Jerusalem Post.

And tell me - who owns that paper then for instance?

I trust you walk around with a white t-shirt brandishing a large blue David's Star and having at the bottom printed on it "F*** Islam" or "F*** Palestine". That at least is the kind of mindsed I detect from your rants.

Double Standards

The only 'trolls' seeking to create "controversy for controversy's sake" were those aboard the Mavi Marmara. Your are correct in that I do not share the views posted by the other anti-semites in this thread.

The question posed is quite reasonable and is an obvious one to be asked when people like yourself ignore all other atrocities in the world and focus soley on Israel. It is wholly disproportionate. If your concern for the 'plight' of those in Gaza was genuine, then surely you would be just as concerned and wanting to draw attention to the of fate those in Darfur, Congo, Kyrgyzstan...

The only reason you feel that you are being pushed into a corner is because you are being asked to be honest with yourself. You already know the motivation behind your selective moral outrage but you just don't want to say it.

what is your bloody problem then?

I have never justified genocide in Rwanda, in Burundi, innocent victims in civil wars in the so-called Democratic Republic of Congo or anywhere else!

Do you not bloody get it? This thread is about atrocities committed by the IDF and Israeli special commandoes that attached an aid ship in INTERNATIONAL WATERS, where no true weapons were found. Only Israeli propaganda talks about "weapons", them being "attacked" and so forth!

You are coming across with the most nonsensical, yes NO real arguments, you just object to people like me raising issues re the conduct of Israeli governments, the IDF, the secret service Mossad and other agencies, as well as the right wing and racist settlers there, that follow a policy of occupation and suppression of Palestinian rights.

You are obviously a ZIONIST yourself, or at least you support that racist ideology. If I was you I would feel embarrassed bringing across that nonsensical BS I have read. But you are one of so many going around with blinkers on and ignorant of what goes on outside your own sphere of brainwashed thinking! So good luck with your narrow minded perspective. You will never convince me or most others that read all this here. You are one of those people one can at best feel sorry for.

Your are correct in that I do

Your are correct in that I do not share the views posted by the other anti-semites in this thread

Your use of the label antisemitism is wrong and you should learn a thing or two about what that label means before employing it again to defame the characters of people who hold a differing opinion than yours. Naming people as antisemitists who oppose the human rights abuses by the Israeli government, is to by default align human rights abuses with semitism, and, to put any criticism of the Israeli Governments actions as out of bounds even when it involves them committed crimes in this manner.

The reason why there is so much outrage against the Israeli Govt and military is not because they are of Jewish heritage, or because the world hates Israel, or whatever other paranoid delusion you have in your head, its because it has been going on for FAR TOO LONG NOW (60 years now). And there are no signs of any lasting resolution meaning this could drag on for another 20+ years.

If one day in the future 40 years from now, I find that the Congo or Darfur or Kyrgyzstan areas are still suffering from human rights abuses then no doubt I will find myself levelling the same attitude at them as I do at the Israeli government now.

The only 'trolls' seeking to create "controversy for controversy's sake" were those aboard the Mavi Marmara

How do you expect anyone to take you seriously even for a minute when you speak of the persecutions in other places around the world then refer to those slaughtered in that part of the world as trolls!

You already know the motivation behind your selective moral outrage but you just don't want to say it.

You probably cannot see this, but if you could ever take a look into a mirror I think you will see that the only one being a selective bigot here is you.

Just to add to Wu's comments

The so-called "semitic" people are not simply people of acknowledge "jewish" origin, it also does include the ARAB peoples of the middle East, like of course the Palestinian people!

So if anybody is supposed to be "anti-semitic" only because she or he has issues with Zionism, then that is nonsensical. If it was simply a matter of "race", then an "anti semitic" person would be against ALL "semitic" people. That includes ARABS.

Hence the arguments raised by Lucas are invalid and totally beyond reason.

Arguments Raised

Hardly surprising that you are unable to grasp or even comprehend the most basic of arguments. You are incapable of sound reason and totally devoid of any rational or intelligent thought. We would'nt want common sense or facts to get in your way now would we?

TO LUCAS THE ONEYED PROVOCATEUR

"You are incapable of sound reason and totally devoid of any rational or intelligent thought".

That smells like extreme arrogance, because you do not even understand the true meaning of "semitic":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic

Only because the Zionists have for themselves claimed the definition "antisemitic" as a term used to define discrimination against Jews do people consider the meaning to be simply "anti Jewish".

I have not detected much in the way of reasoning and intelligence from your totally one-sided and pro Israeli posts here.

Quote of the day

"If one day in the future 40 years from now, I find that the Congo or Darfur or Kyrgyzstan areas are still suffering from human rights abuses then no doubt I will find myself levelling the same attitude at them as I do at the Israeli government now."

That a miserable creature such as yourself can come up with such an appalling justification is hardly surprising. The ironic thing is you have absolutely no idea how bad it sounds. I wonder if you actually think of yourself as human...

Further info for the likes of Judas Lukas

The present Israeli government is - like so often - a coalition government. One party that shares the power and has some significant influence is Yisrael Beiteinu, which is led by Avigdor Lieberman. The policies represented by that racist, right wing party can be read about by following the links listed below:

http://www.haaretz.com/meta/Tag/Avigdor%20Lieberman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avigdor_Lieberman

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yisrael_Beiteinu

Likud, the major party in the present government, is already known for arch-conservative and anti Palestinian policies. So just imagine what this kind of line-up stands for!

Wikipedia

Since 1979, a hundred thousand men, women, and children were executed in Iran—all in the name of Allah. Not enough dead bodies for you though and no Israel for you to blame so moving right along...

For someone like yourself who is very concious of online sources and their potential for bias, I am somewhat bemused in that you are using Wikipedia and the content from your favourite online Hamas rag to try and make a point.

WHAT TWISTED NONSENSE IS THIS AGAIN?

Have I ever defended the atrocities committed by the authoritarian regime in Iran? What Hamas "rag" are you referring to when you criticise me using Wikipedia and certain media for references to get more information?

The more you troll around here the more you expose your silly and one-sided agenda.

Read the top of this page and thread and what this topic is about!

If you wish to raise other topics do so and post an article or opinion on the kind of human rights breaches that you go on about re Democratic Republic of Congo, Iran or whatever country or grouping.

I am truly sich of your constant diverging here. You simply want to distract from what is debated and raised as an issue in this thread. A wrong committed by the state called Israel and their commandoes is not justified by simply comparing it with wrongs in other countries!

You truly beat all other trolls that one now and then comes across this website!

Israel hires Internet

Thanks anon for pointing this out!

Thanks anon for pointing this out! There is indeed a lot of this going on. Also the Mainland Chinese follow this tactic re critics of theirs system.

Below are just 2 links showing just a tiny glimpse of what forums are being used, partly directly run through the IDF or Mossad:

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=130561556960798#!/group.php?gid=130561556960798&v=wall

http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=108149535897266

So may "Lukas" is indeed one of these sorts of "Judas's"?

So may "Lukas" is indeed one

So may "Lukas" is indeed one of these sorts of "Judas's"?

If he is then he should be sacked. Lucas is one of those people who has bought the lie that the actions of the Israeli Government should be defended under the guise of fair and balanced.