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Capitalist media waking up to Tūhoe self-governance

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It looks like the capitalist media is finally realising what the Tūhoe bottom line is in their negotiations with crown. Several media outlets today are reporting on "one of the most controversial treaty settlements ever made" (NewstalkZB) and "a treaty settlement that could be as groundbreaking as it is controversial." (3 News)

Tūhoe entered negotiations with the crown in 2008. Terms of Negotiations were signed on 31st July 2008. The Tribunal hearing took place all around Te Urewera in 2004/5. During the Ruatoki hearing, Tame Iti famously shot a flag - possibly the New Zealand flag, maybe the Australian one. :-)

Self-governance and the return of Te Urewera build the core of Tūhoe's demands. An initial offer to Tūhoe was rejected last year. The offer included $80 million and co-management of the National Park.

Te Kotahi a Tūhoe (TkaT) was set up as the body to organise the Tribunal hearings. Since the singing of the Terms of Negotiations, a new body was established: the Tūhoe Establishment Trust.

In this year's TkaT annual report, chairperson Tamati Kruger writes: "We have heard from you [uri of Ngai Tūhoe] that an enduring Tūhoe settlement must possess the foundation to rebuild the Tūhoe Nation we all want to see for our coming generations." Tamati states further that the "Key Redress Areas or ‘bottom lines’ for Tūhoe Settlement have centred on:

  • The unencumbered return of Te Urewera – Tūhoe homelands
  • Agreed Constitutional arrangements between Tūhoe and the Crown renewing a Tūhoe Crown relationship
  • Financial Redress aimed at addressing Tūhoe infrastructure and creating a Tūhoe economy"

"Te Urewera is Tūhoe homelands. It is where Te Mana Motuhake o Tūhoe lives and grows. There is no other place on earth that has at its foundations or as its vision and purpose Te Mana Motuhake, our Tūhoetanga. For this reason the Negotiating team has heldfast to the return of unrestrictedby the dictates of the National Park status, legislation and governance arrangements. The Crown has asked searching questions about the Iwi’s capability to manage Te Urewera in the event that it is returned free of the Park status. At this stage our responses have satisfied their needs. The terms of the return would include a 5 – 10 year transition period, public access and a commitment to ongoing biodiversity and conservation principles."

So in the foreseeable future, indigenous self-governance will become a reality again in Aotearoa. And not due to a 'nice' government, but because of an iwi that is organised, united and staunch!

LIndymedia articles: The Ruatoki valley blazes as Tuhoe stands tall | Ngāi Tūhoe signs Terms of Negotiation | Self-governance for Ngāi Tūhoe “on the table”

Links: Tūhoe Establishment Trust | Te Kotahi a Tūhoe | Te Mana Motuhake o Tūhoe | Statement on Treaty negotiations with Ngai Tuhoe

Comments

Tūhoe Interdependence the Key Feature

Additional article.


Title: Tūhoe Interdependence the Key Feature
Link: http://www.ngaituhoe.iwi.nz/News/News/id/35.aspx?title=tūhoe-interdependence-the-key-feature


While Cabinet are close to making a decision about the Tūhoe proposal for settlement the media have found difficulty in using outdated words to express the true intent of the Tūhoe settlement.  Tūhoe interdependence recognises the wealth of opportunity possible from a functional and respectful relationship with the Crown, and other national and global communities.  Treaty settlements contribute to the economy of the country, they benefit communities at a very grass roots level, these are all examples of Self-Rule. 

What is essential to the Tūhoe settlement is an understanding of the trust and confidence growing between Tūhoe and the Crown.  This is the real watershed feature of the Tūhoe Crown negotiations.  This government has taken a mature approach to hear and debate these mutual issues with interested parties as a means of advancing this significant relationship.

How exciting!

Wow. This is a really exciting prospect. I will be keenly following the development and eagerly await hearing of Tuhoe reclaiming their whenua and mana motuhake!

TV3 opinion poll

Wow Tuhoe

What does it take to get a Tuhoe passport and work-permit in the Ureweras? I am very interested to share my great expertise in fields of counter-terrorist activities to a dedicated people living in such a great mountainous environment. Would I be allowed to bring my pommy family over and get a permit to stay in your autonomous territory? I would not need to bludge off WInZ, because I am sure that in Tohoe Nation the economy will be independent and fruitful after forein investments from Mainland China, Taiwan or Japan to bring about full employment. Anyway give me a message, I look forward to making a deal with you!

You would be most welcome to

You would be most welcome to come and find a home for yourself and your whanau. But I'd leave that honky arsed rascist anglosaxon supremacist attitude of yours at the border if I were you or else someone will probably come knock you on the head with a lump of wood.

Thank you you are so kind and welcoming

Thank you you are so kind and welcoming. I really like you. Especially your suggestion that I need a good brain massage with a plank of wood! You are a lovely and caring person I truly respect. I have had a bit of a slow brain function recently, so I believe a good shock treatment will set it working well again. Then I may also see through your BS and racist attitude. So we will meet at the fighting ground one day where scores will be settled once and for all. AH had some good ideas!

'Tuhoe land' is correct.You

'Tuhoe land' is correct.

You might be able to get away with your condescending sense of superiority on the net but if you attempt to bring that head up your own arse attitude to Tuhoe you might be in for a bump (on the) head for sure...better left at the border.

...but in saying that Leontil, you and your bumchum 'real lentil' should still come to Tuhoe, there is nothing more exhilarating and invigorating to an oppressed people than to meet a real live Pakeha whose superior and presumptuous sense of yourselves being second to none, you could come espouse some of your wisdom to point out to us the err of our ways while we heat the rocks up for a hangi...

Come visit NZ

Thanks Paru. You should come out to the rest of NZ sometime. It's great here. We respect people's right hold a point of view, no matter how unpalatable to the rest of us. No planks of wood to the head. No hangi's with human remains. Instead, you can have any opinion you want and (here's the best part) the law will protect your right to your opinion. We've got Courts that'll even tell the Police (kaitiaki) to back off when they cross the line. All we ask in return is that you respect others' right to their opinions. Even if you don't agree with them.

Looking forward to seeing you here sometime.

Lentil.

Wow, which utopian country

Wow, which utopian country were you referring to again....haha...for a minute there I thought you were referring to this country when you wrote 'nz' until I read the bit about protecting the rights to your opinions then I realised you must be referring to fictitious dreamland nz, the one that must exists in your ivory tower.

I really like the way the

I really like the way the police have turned neighbourhood watch from a really good idea where neighbours could support each other in watching out for each others places, to neighbours spying on each other and ringing the 0800 555-111 nark line to dob their neighbours in. I think the surveillance society model is the one that is most beneficial to this country in driving toward that 1984 utopia. Alexandre Solzenitsyn when speaking about the Russian people stated: "We did not care enough about freedom.  In the end we got what we deserved."

I like the way that the police can arrest an entire set of workers as in the 250 staff arrests in garden stores raided this week just because the cops implicate their bosses in illegalities. That is a standard of law everyone should live by except the police of course, and courts, politicians etc.

I also very much enjoyed having my trademe accounts raided by police in 2007 due to their anti-terror activities against Tuhoe. Myself and 10,000 other trademe users suffered the same level of enjoyment and made me feel so free to act lawfully without the prying eyes of the law invading my privacy.

My guess is the people of Ruatoki really thoroughly enjoyed being unlawfully detained without arrest too in their homes, some 58 homes raided by police without warrants for which Howard Broad promised to appologise for but seems to have mysteriously forgotten to do so.

I like the way the law protects all those right wing neonazis too, yunno, those mad hatters running around the plains of Canterbury training for war against the onslaught of the Asian invasion. The courts have had to lock a few of them up for murdering half a dozen or so people for their skin colour but by and large NZ police do not classify them as terrorists as they do the Tuhoe who have never even knocked anyone on the head with a block of wood for being racist arseholes even though they may joke about it a lot.

Also really really enjoy the way family houses are being confiscated off them of late because they cannot pay huge rates bills and water bills, that is so touching to see that family last attitude being expressed in "mainstream nz". If only the Tuhoe could see the world that way, boy oh boy what a wonderful place that would be to live in.

Then there is the loving way we care for the land, growing those genetic freak speed growth pines which route the earth of its top soil and leave the land stripped bare making it of little use and making regeneration an absolute nightmare for forest replanting. Yet the Tuhoe hold to those old out of date ideas of caring for the land and putting back what you take out.....they need to modernise their ideas.

Lastly if only the Tuhoe would learn that one important lesson called one law for all, where if I killed you just so I could take ownership of your car I would be arrested, charged with murder and theft, but when the Crown admits it sent its troops in there to burn Tuhoe villages, while their they raped their women, locked many of them up, cleansed the land of hundreds of them in forced relocations, and murdered them in droves for no reason at all other than to steal their land, noone is held to blame.

How many of these murderers were jailed for their crimes, none, how many were even charged for their crimes, none, how many were even implicated in a crime, none - some even recieving medals and promotions for their actions, none of which will ever be posthumously stripped.

Now that the crown has admitted its forebears took part in ethnic cleansing, forced relocations of entire hapu, and genocide to the point of holocaust without affording the Tuhoe any resemblance of justice for 150 years.

After legislating the Urewera Native Reserve Act in 1896 affectively giving Tuhoe their own autonomy, yet in 1916 raided Maungapohatu, raped and pillaged, killed people and arrested Rua Kenana for sedition for daring to envoke that act.

[sighs] Furthermore in the 1950s awarded Tuhoe the biggest loving blow from utopian one law for all NZ with the confiscating the Urewera from them and renaming it a national park, some 80% of the land they had left, add to that the further confiscations under the public works act of thousands and thousands of acres, and not to forget the terrorising raids of 2007 which saw 58 homes illegally raided and hundreds of people unlawfully detained without charge...

You can see they have so much to be thankful for, and-just-love-it when people like Lentil come down in yesterdays rain shower talking one law for all to them like they never heard of it before.

Thanks for that Lorene. I had

Thanks for that Lorene. I had originally been inclined to agree with the sentiments of the likes of lentle until now. To be honest I am appalled that such events have taken place in this country, no wonder the Tuhoe are so pissed off.

Thanks for the backgrounder

Thanks for the backgrounder Lorene. It does not surprise me that there is so much history and shockingly recent history that is not talked about in this country.

great comment Tuhoe Land

great comment Tuhoe Land couldnt have said it better myself!

Yeah most people are only

Yeah most people are only blatantly racist on the net. If they were to come to Tuhoe they would leave that arrogant anglosaxon supremist ideas of theirs at the confiscation line.

I was reminded of this the last time I was at Rewarewa and there was Richard Prebble ex-ACT leader working in the kitchen at the marae doing the dishes, quiet as a mouse. I thought to myself, well well well oh how the world turns...

I remember when he used to spout all that white way is the is right way, racist one law for all garbage like these theorists above are.

Paru & Tuhoeland: "If you

Paru & Tuhoeland: "If you disagree with us in Tuhoeland, we'll give you the bash."

Lentil: "In the rest of NZ, have any opinion you want. You won't get the bash. The law will protect your right to your opinion."

Funny that you'll rant on about freedom of expression, association etc when it suits you. But when you disagree with someone, you conveniently forget that person has those rights too.

Go into ANY poor

Go into ANY poor neighbourhood and start spouting on about them being WINZ dole bludgers and see how long you last, fucken middleclass, aloof, privaleged, govt propaganda loving arselickers!

I'm not sure why you're

I'm not sure why you're trying to compare "WINZ dole bludgers" and Tuhoe. But I do think there's a difference between openly insulting people and merely holding a different political point of view.

Of course, that's a distinction lost on you. Anyone who disagrees with your notion of an independent Tuhoe utopia is, in your mind, a "farken ball head afrikaan speaking...[rant rant rave rave]... govt propaganda loving arselicker."

Just because people disagree with you doesn't make them racist or arselickers or pro-government. So, instead of just shooting your mouth off, why don't you actually read what I'm saying. Then you might be able to respond to the points being made, rather than just levelling hollow accusations recycled from old Hone Harawira speeches.

I'm sick of your insults. Pull your head out of your arse.

The reason you not sure about

The reason you not sure about the WINZ korero because in the beginning of all of this I wasn't talking to you but was directed at your bumchum leontil who brought up the veiled references to Tuhoe and WINZ. You weighed in on this at your own peril so pull your own head out of your own arse and read who I was responding to.

E Paru, Moumou wa ehoa ki te

E Paru,

Moumou wa ehoa ki te whakatika te korero kuare o enei o nga whakamohio rorirori. I a ratou whakakaaro kei te punenga a ratou ra korero tikanga hoki. Pirangi tonu a ratou i te noho whakapononga, he pai ki ahau nei.

Te mutunga ke mai o te heahea tera whakaaro!

UreweraGreen
No Te Tau Tangata o Ngai Tuhoe

It's not a matter of wasting

It's not a matter of wasting time correcting ignorance. It's about justifying your entitlement to self-governance. 

What....justify it to you? Go

What....justify it to you? Go get fucked. What makes you think the Tuhoe need to justify anything they do to anyone else other than the Tuhoe people, we Tuhoe decided to embark on this, this a Tuhoe people driven plan not some pretend coop made up of bullshit artists, all big hats and no kumara patch!

If we decide there need to be justification, it will be done because the decision be made by everyone, not because a wannabe like you think you need us to justify our actions to you.

On that note your determination to remain in ignorance shows you already made your mind up which is probably why the Urewera green saying to me moumou taima. Aside from a small group of exceptions, this country full of people like yourself, in fact nz is world famous for it.

Ignorant, servile and head up arse full of it, no real good ideas, or any ideas period, no risk taking, jis endless energy to go around shitting on anyone else working on an idea to help their own out...cause you know it all ne...we all living in suspension waiting for your god complex, ivory towered view of the world to save us from our wretched selves and lead us into your world of visionless inaction and missed opportunities. 

So kei te tika te korero e Ureweragreen, moumou ake.

The Government has what you

The Government has what you want. The Government represents the people. So you do need to justify it to the Government and, by extension, to the people it represents. That includes me.

If you don't, or can't, then you are the one who can "go get fucked".

The Government represents the

The Government represents the people

Um on planet Lalaland maybe, is that where you live Lentil?

No.

No.

Good to see. Tuhoe are here

Good to see. Tuhoe are here to stay, thats the message to the Crown, sort this raru out now or see it fester and smolder for another 50 years and then you still have to revisit it again, we will still be here saying the same thing as we were saying 50 years ago and 50 years before that.

This all is just the beginning, there is more exciting stuff to come, watch this space....hurinoa.

George Rangiaho
Ngati Rongo
Tuhoe Nation

If the land was wrongly taken

If the land was wrongly taken from Tuhoe, then it's only fair to give it back.

Self-governance is a separate issue and, in my opinion, absolutely wrong. The same law should apply to all New Zealanders. Having different rules for different people on the basis of their genetics is anathema to the rule of law. It is deeply divisive. And it is patently unfair.

Let's be straight-up about

Let's be straight-up about this: does "self-governance" mean secession from the state of New Zealand? That's what I take it to mean. If that is the case, as a 3rd generation pakeha New Zealander, I say good luck to them. But don't expect any benefits or privileges from NZ, you'll be on your own.

What will 'self-governance'

What will 'self-governance' actually look like and what will it mean for Tuhoe? Of course in the context of a capitalist society like the one we all currently reside in any redress on the part of the government will necessarily involve co-opting the struggle through the creation of a Tuhoe bourgeoisie, hence the need to 'create a Tuhoe economy'. By a Tuhoe economy we should make no mistake, this means a new Tuhoe capitalism - a capitalism with the added nicety of an anti-colonialist face.

At best this is a case of the New Zealand state handing the burden of discplining the Tuhoe working class over to a local clique of capitalists, bureaucrats and managers, more likely it is a case of Tuhoe 'leaders' being more heavily integrated into the process of formal parliamentary politics, along with local capitalists opening the area up to greater investment from without (and of course keeping a tidy sum for themselves).

Clearly the long standing tradition within the nz left of conflating the political manouvoring of the Maori bourgeoisie with the interests of 'Maoridom' dies hard. Once gain Aotearoa IMC has proved its worth as little more than a stooge for the more disaffected factions of the ruling class rather than a subversive voice which seeks confrontation with the exploitative and oppressive society we are all forced to live under, and which, despite the ernest efforts of both national liberationists and their many cheerleaders, has the unfortunate tendency of constantly reasserting itself.

Olly. You may be missing the

Olly. You may be missing the fact that porihanga Maori under tikangi is inherently hierarchical, patriarchal and quasi-democratic. The neo-Marxist principles of "bourgeoisie" or "working class" have no equilavents in porihanga Maori under tikanga and so speaking about it in those terms makes no sense. The models are just fundamentally different.

Perhaps your concern is how limited resources would be distributed if Tuhoe won self-governance. I can't pretend to speak intelligently about that. But you might like to ask Paru Kiore how wealth (and poverty) would be distributed in those circumstances. Paru?

Capitalism is not a cultural

Capitalism is not a cultural practice though, its a concrete, material system which divides us all into classes. The traditional family or tribal structures aren't really relevant here because no amount of tradition can escape the fact that we all have to participate in capitalism to continue living.

Economics vs Culture

I think there's a fine distinction between an economic system and a cultural practice.

The point is that tikanga encompasses both. It describes those that live under tikanga in its own terms. AFAIK, it doesn't have analogous concepts to "working class" and "bourgeousie". Accordingly, it doesn't make sense to talk about it in those terms.

What I was picking up from you was a concern about how limited resources would be distributed under a self-governance model. Will resources be distributed equally amongst the members? Or will a greater proportion be reserved for a limited group? Will all Members have a equal say in the managment of those resources? Or will some have greater control than others?

Those are the kind of questions I understand that you were raising. That, I think, is something that you'll have to direct to Paru.

P.S. Olly. It's refreshing to come across someone who discusses the issue rather than abuses the poster when they have a contrary point of view. Although I disagree with your politics, you articulate your points well. On that basis, I respect your opinion and not just your right to hold it. I look forward to further debate .

Lentil

The point is that tikanga

The point is that tikanga encompasses both. It describes those that live under tikanga in its own terms. AFAIK, it doesn't have analogous concepts to "working class" and "bourgeousie". Accordingly, it doesn't make sense to talk about it in those terms.

To be frank, capital doesn't give a damn about cultural practice so I don't think it makes any sense to equate the two. Of course Tuhoe may have differing cultural practices but if they're participating in the capitalist system the basic economic forces which allow capitalism to work will necessarily still be there.

What I was picking up from you was a concern about how limited resources would be distributed under a self-governance model. Will resources be distributed equally amongst the members? Or will a greater proportion be reserved for a limited group? Will all Members have a equal say in the managment of those resources? Or will some have greater control than others?

Yeah I was partly asking that, but more importantly I was pointing out that all of these questions can be pretty much answered because any self-governing Tuhoe territory will still be a part of the larger capitalist system, and that no amount of will power on the part of Tuhoe can change that.

It's refreshing to come across someone who discusses the issue rather than abuses the poster when they have a contrary point of view.

To be fair, I think you have to appreciate that this is a product of historical antagonisms between Tuhoe and the crown and which therefore still carries fresh memories of old wounds, and of course some recent ones.

Unlike you though I'm not particularly opposed to Tuhoe self-governance. However, given my anarchist communist politics, I'm hardly enthused by it either.

We may have to agree to

We may have to agree to disagree on the economics vs culture point. I think that an economic system is part of a society's culture and vice versa. I also think that non-capitalist societies can exist within a wider capitalist system. For example, international commerce is essentially capitalist. However, communist countries can and do (successfully) participate in international commerce without losing their communist identity. If that is correct, there is nothing to say that Tuhoeland (let's call it that for argument's sake) can't engage in economic activity with wider NZ without adopting a non-capitalist economic system. In fact, I believe that a quasi-capitalist system would be the likely outcome. But I look forward to your views.

As I understand your view, you think that Tuhoeland will be capitalist because, as a matter of necessity, it will have to participate in economic activity within a wider capitalist NZ. This is likely to result in the creation (or continuation) of a "working class" and a "bourgeoisie" and attendant inequalities in the distribution and control over resources and methods of production? If that's the case, do you suggest a solution? Does your prediction of Capitalist Tuhoeland affect your support for self-governance?

It's refreshing to come across someone who discusses the issue rather than abuses the poster when they have a contrary point of view.

To be fair, I think you have to appreciate that this is a product of historical antagonisms between Tuhoe and the crown and which therefore still carries fresh memories of old wounds, and of course some recent ones.

I wasn't referring to this thread in particular, but responses I get in general. But I take your point. I've tried to be less provocative in my most recent post to Paru. It is difficult though, when I'm being accused of being ignorant and racist.

Olly: By a Tuhoe economy we

Olly: By a Tuhoe economy we should make no mistake, this means a new Tuhoe capitalism

What makes you say that? You think Tamati Kruger is capitalist? Get real!

Fortunately Tuhoe have a

Fortunately Tuhoe have a longer view of history and connection to our land and way of life than you fly by nighters with your middle class theories spouted from aloof perches concerning the inevitability of where you think Tuhoe is heading. How different is the root of your points of view from any other dumby who knows nothing of Tuhoe and thinks this will threaten their destructive way of life or the false perception of unity that does not exist in this country.

That argument of divisiveness, the Brashist 'One Law For All' bullshit misdirection is just a cover for the same hamuti that was used to justify centuries of war between Scotland and England, and Ireland and England. In the end England had to get over itself and piss off and leave Scotland and Ireland to run their own affairs.

Clearly most of you have no fucken idea about who Tuhoe are or what we stand for and stand against and some of you must think we came down in last nights rain shower if you think we are not aware of the NZ governments and businesses deceptive plans and the subterfuge in their stratagem.

Tuhoe hapu will decide what Tuhoe will do and look like as we have from day one. If that means nothing more than small holder blocks trading kai between ourselves then so be it, thats the Tuhoe way which some of you would do well to learn a thing or two about before allowing your mouths to run awar with your theoretical analysis to what the media would have you see about Tuhoe.

Thanks Paru.Your comment is

Thanks Paru.

Your comment is exactly the kind of arrogant, aggressive, incoherent rhetoric that demonstrates why self-governance is dangerous and ill-conceived hamuti. With people like you in charge, conviction would trump competence. Raru will inevitably follow.

You appear to think that those who oppose self-governance (I assume you mean me) are missing something. Or to use your words "believe in the Brashist 'One Law For All' bullshit" and "have no fucken[sic] idea about who Tuhoe are or what we stand for" and "would do well to learn a thing or two before allowing [our] mouths to run away".

Instead of posting abuse, why don't you enlighten us about the "Tuhoe way" and "what Tuhoe stand for" and explain why and how that justifies self-governance? While your at it, you could also expand on "the NZ governments[sic] and businesses[sic] deceptive plans and the subterfuge in their stratagem" because, as far as I was aware, this government (in which the Maori party has a disproportionately large say) appears to be giving more in the way of indigenous rights concessions than any previous one.

Please imbue us with your knowledge.

Lentil

Ngati Deutsche/Ngai Dahl

Tuhoe are a culture of their own

Yes indeed, the Tuhoe people are a people and culture of their own. They have hundred even thousands of years of cultural heritage that is indisputable. It has been a high culture of ancient history, same as the greeks, the romans, the egyptians, babylonians and of the Indus Valley! So how dare anybody questioning this? Tuhoe culture is an example to live by. It is a higher culture, much higher than the Pakeha culture of capitalism and hegomony. So all you critics back off! Tuhoe are the people of the mist in the Ureweras. They know best about their land. We believe they should erect border posts and collect taxes from people entering their territory. This is the right of an autonomous people. John Key has given us this right by signing a UN declaration for the indigenous peoples. He may say it is not relevant or just "symbolic", but to Tuhoe this is different. He honours our secret agreements. The agreements between Maori and the state. So keep on complaining. One day we want ALL of our land back! So you Pakehas and immigrants better look for a refuge in your territories in Europe, Asia, and so forth. We are the ones in right and rule here!

How different is the root of

How different is the root of your points of view from any other dumby who knows nothing of Tuhoe and thinks this will threaten their destructive way of life or the false perception of unity that does not exist in this country.

That wasn't my point at all, I don't think there is any kind of unity in this country. My point is that through further integration within capitalism there will not be any unity within Tuhoe because capitalism necessarily divides us into classes in order to properly function. The original article mentions a 'Tuhoe economy', what else could this mean but the further encroachment of capitalist social relations in Tuhoe territory?

That argument of divisiveness, the Brashist 'One Law For All' bullshit misdirection is just a cover for the same hamuti that was used to justify centuries of war between Scotland and England, and Ireland and England. In the end England had to get over itself and piss off and leave Scotland and Ireland to run their own affairs.

I don't give a damn about bourgeois law for all, again thats not at all what I'm saying. However this sums up the point I'm trying to make, 'Scotland and Ireland' to not run their own affairs in any meaningful sense. A local clique of capitalists, bureaucrats and politicians run their affairs. The English have simply handed the burden of administrative duties over to some locals, while the same old people continue to pull the strings.

If that means nothing more than small holder blocks trading kai between ourselves then so be it, thats the Tuhoe way which some of you would do well to learn a thing or two about before allowing your mouths to run awar with your theoretical analysis to what the media would have you see about Tuhoe.

But Tuhoe will still have to be a part of the broader economic system in Aotearoa, are you seriously saying Tuhoe which just materially insulate itself and not trade with the outisde? No oil or coal, electronics, coffee or tea etc... You can't secede your way out of capitalism.

 

Fark this place is overrun

Fark this place is overrun with ballhead afrikaan speaking anglo white surpremists. Paru might have to pop over to stormfront to get an honest racist point of view instead of this veiled racist bullshit being dished out here.

"Your comment is exactly the kind of arrogant, aggressive, incoherent rhetoric..."

Sounds a lot like you Real Lentil, my comments are exactly the thoughts in my head whereas yours come laced with a forked undertones pushing your right wing conservative agenda you foist onto readers of this website.If you think my words are abuse because I speak plainly then you better get ready for some more.

The reason you struggle with the idea of Tuhoe governing ourselves is because you appear to have already surrendered your weak mind to the current system for which you believe is superior. This is why almost everything you have to say is just reinforcing the status quo.

If you really wanted to know who Tuhoe really are you would get off your lazy arse and come to Tuhoe learn about us, we been here for a thousand years. This may come as a surprise to you but the Tuhoe do not live to come online and give you enlightenment about who we are and there is no need for Tuhoe to justify anything to you even though in your arrogance and false sense of superiority you may feel that we do.

As for the kawana agendas, the crown never give anything away for free, they be expecting a lot from Tuhoe for what they are giving out and are going to be fucked off when they don't get anything.

This may come as a surprise

This may come as a surprise to you but the Tuhoe do not live to come online and give you enlightenment about who we are and there is no need for Tuhoe to justify anything to you even though in your arrogance and false sense of superiority you may feel that we do.

Fair enough. You certainly don't need my permission or anyone elses to pursue reperations from the government for stolen land, and to try and gain greater autonomy. But if you're going to take the time to respond to an online discussion about Tuhoe self-governance you should at least do it without throwing around accusations of 'veiled racism'.

land rights

  Im a kiwi,living in australia and no doubt someone will say,stay there

  or keep your nose out of it but I have a serious question,That is-once

  youve got your land back what the hell are you going to do with it?

  Or is this about the money youll get and being able to say ours again

  while you sit dow watching tv sucking on a can of beer.

Fuck off dickhead.

Fuck off dickhead.

dickhead

 Hey that was a serious question,what are,you going to do with it?

The veiled racism korero was

The veiled racism korero was not directed at you.

That was to olly

That was to olly

'Racism'

Olly mate, I think you have to get used to the fact that the resident trolls here accuse anyone who steps outside their very narrow ideological box of being racist. Throwing the r word around means you don't have to actually defend your position in a political discussion, which allows you to ignore any flaws it might have.

If Tuhoe want self-determination then I'm fully supportive of their right to exercise it. But I have to ask a few questions - how is the Tuhoe struggle for self-determination helping to fight the oppression of working class Maori in South Auckland? Does Tuhoe seperatism challenge the power of the ruling capitalist class, and how? Is the goal to build a movement of all oppressed people in this country to overthrow their oppressors, or is the goal limited to winning regional autonomy for a small group of people?

I'm not asking these questions with any intent to attack anyone and I'm not pretending that I have expert knowledge on every aspect of New Zealand/Tuhoe history and so on. I'm asking these questions because I'm genuinely interested in having them answered, and I hope that doesn't make me a racist.

Alastair: Paru was accusing

Alastair: Paru was accusing me of being racist, not Olly. But the second sentence of your post is bang on.

Ah good good! @ Paru btw.

Ah good good! @ Paru btw.

Who's the racist?

@Paru.

When someone questions your point of view, you resort to calling them "racist"? How disappointingly predictable.

I believe in one law for all, regardless of race. That's called "equality".

You want separate laws to apply to you, on the basis of your race. That's called "apartheid".

I asked why you supported that policy. Rather than getting a straight answer I get called ignorant, accused of being racist, and told that a justification isn't necessary. That's fine, I can handle the abuse. But your response smacks of someone who doesn't have sound reasons to support their strong convictions.

If it's so blindingly obvious that self-governance is appropriate, you should have no problem articulating why. As it is, your defensiveness and belligerence cements my view that it is not.

what the fucks going on over there

 This isnt to anyone in particular,but fair go,I was born in nz and had and still have many maori friends.I never heard them talk about racism and the rest of

the bullshit/hard doneby crap that I am reading here.We were all equal and got

on with our lives,stop feeling sorry for yourselves and blaming others,deal with

life like the rest of us.Soft cocks.

Fuck you closet racists are a

Fuck you closet racists are a laugh a minute. You really need to let your inner racist out, and stop trying to shield it with all of that alterior guarded language....you will feel a lot better about yourself.

The 'one law for all' campaign used back in the brash days was a race card campaign. That argument has been hashed out a million times back in 2004-2005 so why should I give a flying fuck about dredging that old bullshit up again??? Just because you brought it up as a loaded question?

You still don't get it do you, national didn't believe that was the truth themselves when they came up with that campaign, about the one law for all, its a line, a piece of doublespeak, its racist and it was intended to be as it was designed to nab the ignorant vote - no doubt you were probably one of them. The only idiot in national that believed it and still does was donkhead brash...so you are in good company.

That slogan 'one law for all' was originally intended to combat the encroaching Islamic law and Vatican law by the One Law For All movement. It was however pinched and twisted around and used as a political campaign by the Ku Klux Klan to get one of their pointy heads into govt...in the exact same 'out of context' that the racist brash used it...

If you want me to articulate on something, you should try to have a thought that comes from your own head for once and ask a real question instead of parroting someone elses racist bullshit, then I might make and effort to address it.

closet racist

 perhaps Im not up to speed here,but was paru talking to me?

adding to my last comment

 paru,

        It is better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove

        all doubt,

                    from REX

You want different rules to

@Paru

You want different rules to apply to you. You want that on the basis of your race. That is the definition of racism. That makes you the racist, not me.

You say you speak frankly. So, why don't you come out and admit you're racist? Huh? Because if you did, you wouldn't be able to bat away people's comments by accusing them of racism. You might actually have to try and justify your position. Something I suspect you'll have difficulty doing.

My "one law for all" has nothing to do with Don Brash or the other political movements you quoted. So you can stop associating me with them. It means simply what it says: the same law should apply to everyone, without special privileges reserved to certain individuals or groups. This is not some oppressive right wing idea. It is a common and key element in most political systems.

Although who I am is completely irrelevant to this debate, I want to clear up a couple of untrue assumptions you've made about me. I'm a mild socialist and I voted Labour (both votes) in the 2005 and 2002 elections. I've got less european blood in me than Tariana Turia. I have a full head of hair. So you can put away your image of me being some rampant raving closet racist right wing white KKKolonist descendant. Thanks.

Lentil

Ngati Not Racist.

'You want different rules to

'You want different rules to apply to you. You want that on the basis of your race. That is the definition of racism. That makes you the racist, not me.'

Fuck you talk a lot of shit loaded with ignorance and racial superiority speak. You the one saying this is about different rules and races not me, the short answer to you is that you a completely wrong on every point you have made so far about this situation in Tuhoe leaving you with a score of zero which matches the level of knowledge you have about the place the people and events that lead up to this issue and the affects this will have on Aotearoa as a whole.

Fuck, why do you bother expounding so much energy into these discussions about something you have not taken 10 seconds of your time to learn about and your ideas are not your own, just a rehash of the same rhetoric all white based political parties use to tap into the redneck voter pool, from arseholes like brash to david duke to martin doutres one nz to pauline hansons one australia. Its all the same fear based racist bullshit wrapped up in veiled language.

Rex, you say "...It is better to be thought a fool than open your mouth and remove all doubt..."

Yet you open your mouth and removed all doubt. See, while I wasnt referring to you in that korero, I can now see that I was.

Well, thanks for clarifying

Well, thanks for clarifying nothing.

...the short answer to you is that you a completely wrong on every point you have made so far...

How about explaining why? Or is that too hard for you?

...which matches the level of knowledge you have about the place the people and events that lead up to this issue...

I'm not sure how you expect us to understand these things unless you, the person arguing for change, tell us why it's justified. You've had every opportunity to enlighten us. Instead, you've thrown wild accusations of racism and ignorance.

...just a rehash of the same rhetoric all white based political parties use to tap into the redneck voter pool, from arseholes like brash to david duke to martin doutres one nz to pauline hansons one australia. Its all the same fear based racist bullshit wrapped up in veiled language...

No, it's not. Egalitarianism, Equality before the Law and The Rule of Law have little, if any, particular relevance to Pauline Hanson, Don Brash etc. They are fundamental tenets of all modern political systems across the left-right spectrum. And they are the antithesis of the racism that you are accusing me of.

You may have been able to bully others into agreeing with you by scaring them with accusations of "racism" (*quiver!!!*) or by your strong convictions. Those tactics will not work here. Abuse me all you want. I don't care. It just demonstrates that you've run out of reasons for your opinions.

L

How about explaining why? Or

How about explaining why? Or is that too hard for you?

I would describe it more as not so much too hard but probably painful to have to explain the obvious. lol

From memory all those listed from Hanson to Brash all use the one law for all to ratchet up the racial tension. The term was coopted by intentional and unintentional racists from time in memorial.

Remember the famous patriarchial line "all men are created equal" by Thomas Jefferson, well I doubt his slaves held him to be a particularly balanced egalitarianist nor his wife. Yet his intentions were probably more honourable than those listed above when he used the phrase.

This issue with Tuhoe is not a racist issue or a call for two separate laws, hell you can find models of what they are asking for in the US and Canada with the Native American reserves.

Any group seeking autonomy or independence would normally have had to fight for it one way or another however from what I have read and seen on TV about this, it appears that Tuhoe are asking for negotiation to be able to set up a semi-autonomous state similar to the reserves but not quite the same - the key difference being "interdependence" rather than the strict "independence" or separatism as it is commonly referred to.

Ask yourself is Canada delving into two laws for all with its dealings with the Inuit, well not really, its under the common law and legislative law that you have the federal autonomous state of Nunavut brought into being by the Nunavut Act which achieves the same desired affect I believe Tamati Kruger is talking about.

Same goes for the separatist Scotish Parliament and the various union acts that gave them their authority to separate out from Englands Parliament.

That being the case then, it would be the ultimate act of egalitarianism to flesh out some legislation with Tuhoe to also allow them the same level of autonomy that has been afforded to other groups and peoples that through treaties, geography, time and a wish to control and restrict the influx of capitalism into their area have sort to take territorial matters into their own hands.

Larry. Thanks for your post.

Larry. Thanks for your post. I believe it contributes some valuable points to this debate. So, I'm somewhat hesitant to disagree...but...

You've said that the justifications for self-governance are painfully obvious and therefore don't require explanation. I don't think people should accept a point of view just because its proponents assert "it's obvious!". An open but inquisitive mind will ask "why?". If the point is truly obvious, there should be no difficulty answering that question. So far, however, it has not been answered.

I'm not sure how to respond to your points about Thomas Jefferson, Pauline Hanson etc because I'm not sure what you're trying to say. I suppose it has something to do with the fact that egalitarism, as an ideal, has existed in societies which adopted and accepted policies that blatantly contradicted that principle. That is a valid criticism of those societies and those practices, but I don't think it undermines the validity of egalitarianism as a political concept.

As for Nunavut, Scottish devolution, Indian reservations in the United States. Just because devolution and autonomy has been adopted in other countries doesn't make it right for ours. And to the extent that they stand for different rules for one ethnic group as against others and the transfer of value from the general franchise to the specific, I disagree with those systems.

You can download the Tuhoe

You can download the Tuhoe History of Resistance doco from torrents.

Download torrent [here].

Too much Tuhoe! Kia mau tonu

Too much Tuhoe! Kia mau tonu ra ki to mana motuhake.

'To be frank, capital doesn't

'To be frank, capital doesn't give a damn about cultural practice'

Really? That would be come as a surprise to a lot of the people who brought capitalism to this part of the world. They were always complaining about the obstacles which Polynesian cultural practices created for them. The refusal of many Polynesian groups to divide collectively-owned land into individual title and offer it for sale, the failure of Polynesians to work on newly-established plantations as individuals, rather than in groups, and their tendency to work their own hours, and to clear off for days or weeks whenever an important events like a wedding or funeral was being held - these and many other contradictions between Polynesian culture and the practices of capitalism are noted again and again by nineteenth century colonisers and business-owners.

(The sorts of complaints I've mentioned were made in virtually every other society in which capitalism was imposed. In his famous essay 'Time, Work-discipline and Industrial Capitalism' the great English historian EP Thompson shows how even the English and the Germans had to be cajoled and coerced into accepting the new rhythms of capitalist life and developing a culture compatible with capitalism.)

Collective ownership of land, collective organisation of labour, and the primacy of kin relationships are central to most traditional Polynesian cultures. They presented, and in some places continue to present, major obstacles to the encroachment of capitalism. There have been many times when the conflict between Polynesian culture and capitalism has flared into conflict.

Many of the conflicts grouped together nowadays under the heading 'the New Zealand Wars' were the product of the contradiction between Polynesian collectivism and the requirements of capitalism. Maori wanted to hold the land collectively and work it; capitalist farmers and speculators wanted to take it and subdivide it. The Mau rebellion which led to Samoan independence from New Zealand was triggered when Kiwi administrators tried to 'modernise' the country by breaking up old collectively-owned parcels of land and imposing more 'discipline' on Samoan labourers.

The contradiction between Polynesian culture and capitalism persists today in various forms. The protracted and bitter struggles in parts of the Cook Islands against advocates of capitalism who want to break collectively-owned land into individual pieces and make it available to foreigners for purchase is one sign of the contradiction.

Another symptom of the contradiction is the well-publicised failure of World Bank microcredit schemes to influence the economies of Polynesian nations like Samoa and Tonga. This failure has occurred because the individualist cultural bias of the World Bank clashes with the culture of those nations. Loans which were given to individuals were distributed in the kin group; profits which were supposed to be churned back into a business established with a microcredit loan were shared out amongst a village.

In this country, the conflicts within some iwi between those who want to adopt a corporate-style structure, divide up and sell some collectively-owned land, and invest rather than redistribute income, and those who want to follow different, anti-corporate practices are another sign of the continuing contradiction between Polynesian culture and capitalism.

I think that Paru is correct, then, to suggest that Tuhoe tikanga does in important ways contradict the practices of capitalism. And I think that, if Tuhoe were successful in winning real control of major resources from the Crown, this contradiction would make itself felt from within. Tuhoe versions of Tuku Morgan and Graham Latimer would emerge to argue that the iwi must ditch some parts of its tikanga and embrace 'corporate culture'. They would advocate cutting deals with multinational companies and working with parties like National. They would tell us that economic development can only come through capitalism.

But there are alternatives to capitalism as a motor for economic development. There are examples, both in New Zealand and in other parts of Polynesia, of peoples using modern technology and modern trade networks to develop their economies, and yet retaining collective control of their land and other resources.

In this country, the classic example of this alternative to capitalism is what some sociologists have called the 'Polynesian mode of production', which flourished in the Waikato Kingdom and in Parihaka before those places where invaded and conquered by Pakeha. Using imported technology, the peoples of the Waikato Kingdom and of Parihaka grew food for export to the Pakeha cities of Auckland, Wellington, and Sydney, but they grew the food on collectively-owned land using collective labour. Their economic success and their refusal to sell their land infuriated Pakeha capitalists, and led to their eventual conquest.

The sort of hybrid economy which was developed in the Waikato and Parihaka - using modern technology and trade, and yet retaining collective forms of labour and land ownership - is still seen today in a number of Polynesian nations. It is also being experimented with today in Venezuela and in Bolivia, where left-wing governments have returned large areas of stolen land to peasants, some of whom are indigenous peoples, and urged them to use the land collectively, by forming co-operatives or communal farms. There is no reason why Tuhoe could not retain returned land and resources in collective ownership and develop their land and resources for the benefit of the whole iwi.

There are already examples of iwi who are opting for the  collectivist 'Polynesian mode of production' model of development over the 'corporate' model. Recently I visited a tourist attraction which is sited on land returned to a hapu. The land is jointly-owned by the whole hapu, and the tourism business employs members of the hapu and places an important part of the income it generates into a trust fund run by the hapu. This fund pays for things like tertiary fees and dental treatment for members of the group. Important decisions about the strategic direction of the business are made collectively, by the hapu. It seems to me that the model of economic development being pursued by this hapu is not only consistent with Maori tikanga - it is inconsistent with the dictates of capitalism.

I've blogged a little about the way that the New Zealand state has actually impeded economic development in Tuhoe country here:

http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2007/10/dont-blame-tuhoe-for-underdevelopment.html

There was also an interesting discussion recently involving Chris Trotter, myself, and others about the history of the Polynesian mode of production, and the question of whether it presented an alternative to capitalism:

http://readingthemaps.blogspot.com/2010/04/history-necessity-and-new-zealand-wars.html

 

 

NZ Herald this morning:Tuhoe

This is all great stuff

Well on reading all this I wonder whether there ever was any in-fighting among Maori people before? It appears they had the ideal socialist society, albeit some improvements due to fertile enhancements from new migrants may have happened.

Get real, this is not quite as it happened.

Karl Marx was quite right when he emphasised the necessity to push for progress, which was the challenge the industrialists and imperialists threw at the other side in the class war!

He was more progressive than some here wish to acknowledge. Indeed he was very analytical and saw what was to come. If in later years he had philosophical wanderings about the possibility that "socialist" societies may have existed in certain native societies in distant countries, and whether the need for revolution may not be a question if those "primitive" societies were able to survive, then this is a sign of an ageing man that may have just 'speculated".

The more clear and brilliant thinking and analysis of Marx in "Das Kapital" is still the true picture we should look at.

We may indulge in romantic ideas about some South Pacific Societies living in harmony, the truth is that they were very much tribal and did not hesitate to fight between tribes on different islands, in different valleys, in some cases even went as far as cannibalism and had a very strict hierarchy. That to me is little "socialist", and I do not wish to run down the people that originate from those backgrounds on the base of "culture" or race.

Even in Europe we had our "ancient" times with "Neandertal Man", "Cromagnon Man" and later tribal warfares and whatever. We cannot preach and set examples.

Where though does all this leave us today?

I doubt that we should day dream and interpret certain past societal conditions as idealistic and socialist, when indeed they were anything but!

The same applies to modern-day thinking about the rights of Maori tribes, whanau, whatever. Once we go down that way we end up again in tribalism, hegemony, dividedness, envy and social hierarchy.

That is the true danger I wish to make aware of.

All you are welcome to your posts and opinion, but I think we need to really look at it very hard, where we come from and where we are going in Aotearoa!

 

Good Night.

That's a rather silly parody

That's a rather silly parody of what I wrote, Madman. I provided references to a string of historical events and social formations; you ought to try contesting them, if you disagree with what I was arguing. The real utopianism in this thread belongs to those who believe that it is unecessary for the left to study the real history of Polynesia and the Tuhoe rohe, with its complexities and contradictions, and that empty rhetoric about the proletariat and revolution is enough to win arguments. You write that: 

'The more clear and brilliant thinking and analysis of Marx in "Das Kapital" is still the true picture we should look at.'

The problem with your attempt to counterpose the 'good' Marx of Das Kapital with the 'bad' elderly Marx who praised indigenous and semi-capitalist societies like the Iroquois Federation and peasant Russia is that the research of Marx's last decade was undertaken as part of his work on Das Kapital.

Marx's studies of Russian peasant communism and his readings in ethnography - readings that actually saw him (shock! horror!) exploring writings on Maori culture in the last couple of years of his life - were intended to help him write the second and third volumes of Das Kapital. He never finished those volumes, but he made an effort to revise and re-interpret the work you are holding up as his authentic product so that it reflected his mature conclusions.

For instance, he removed glowing references to the progressive nature of the destruction of peasant communes in Russia from the first volume of Das Kapital when it was republished in the 1870s, and when the Communist Manifesto was republished in Russia in 1882 he added a new preface which stated that the text's equation of capitalism and colonialism with progress was outdated, and which predicted that Russia's peasant communes could be the basis for socialism in that country.

So are you going to go back to the pre-1870s editions of Das Kapital and to the 1848 edition of the Manifesto, because you don't like what Marx discovered once he did some serious research on indigenous and pre-capitalist societies? I think that you are the one who is living in the past, comrade. If you can't come into the twenty-first century, you could at least make an effort to catch up with what Marx was saying in the 1870s and '80s.

 

I cannot wait to see what

I cannot wait to see what develops from this. Much aroha to Tuhoe, your future is your own, me and my family are honoured to be around when you have finally begun to see an essence of justice for the crimes committed against you even up to the 1950s when the Crown confiscated what they call the Urewera National Park.

John Key says no to return of

John Key says no to return of stolen lands.
http://maorinews.com/karere/?p=2254