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Police run operations on political activists

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A recent document released under the Official Information Act (OIA) shows that the Police are heavily spying on and running operations on protest groups. In the Police annual report for the year ending 30th June 2009, a reference was made to “84 operation orders” made in relation to “public demonstrations”. An OIA request for a list of all these operation orders made in October 2009 has now finally been answered by Police National Headquarters and the results are chilling.

In 2008/9, the police ran operations on a “Tibet candlelight vigil”, the “Stagecoach Bus Strike” and a “Palestine Peace Vigil” in Wellington, a “Bible group” outside the US embassy, the “Waterside Workers' Strike” in Auckland and a protest in Otahuhu “re lack of swimming pool”.

A list of the 84 operation orders has been released. However, access to the actual orders has so far been denied.

Peace Action Wellington condemns the action of the NZ Police in conducting operations on protests against the annual weapons conference hosted by the NZ Defence Industry Association and against legitimate political dissent. ‘Protecting these people is protecting war mongers and war profiteers from public disgust, outrage and resistance to their activities’ said Valerie Morse, Peace Action member. ‘In my experience, the police see their role as shutting down protests, and they will do whatever is necessary in order to accomplish that, including extensive surveillance, arbitrary arrest and detention of people without any cause whatsoever.'

Links: Police Thugs at it here and there (Wellington ABC)

Which protests were monitored

What follows is a list of the operations divided up into 'issues':

Workers and Trade Unions

The police in Wellington and Auckland ran several operations during industrial disputes. These include operations in Auckland during the Watersiders' strike in late 2008 and John Key's 'Job Summit'. In Wellington, operations were run during the lock-out of bus drivers in Wellington in 2008, as well as an operation on the Rail Maritime and Transport Union in June 2009. A “Health Services Vigil” and a “Pay and Equity Rally” were also monitored.

Students

An Auckland student protest in July 2008, “Operation Massey” in Palmerston North around “student occupation of [the] university registry” and a protest at Victoria University in May 2009 all came with police operations.

Solidarity protests

Several protests outside embassies in Wellington were observed closely by the police. The following four had operation orders: two protests outside the Australian High Commission (December 2008 and June 2009 to do with activists on trial in Melbourne in relation to the G20 summit), a protest outside the Greek Embassy in December 2008 after the killing of a teenager in Athens and a protest outside the Peruvian Embassy in June 2009.

State Terror Raids protests

Two operations were run on protests relating to the state terror raids of 15th October 2007. Firstly, a protest march in Auckland a few days before the deposition hearing started in late August and according to the Wellington police a “Global Day of Action” on 15th October 2008.

Falun Gong

Three operations relate to Falun Gong activities. One “rally” was held in Auckland and two protests in Wellington (one also mentions Amnesty International).

Free Tibet

The police ran operations on “candlelight vigils” organised by Free Tibet groups. One Free Tibet protest in Auckland was monitored and a vigil and a protest were enough to require police operations.

Israel/Palestine

Five operations were in relation to protests about the conflict in Israel and Palestine (all in the Wellington district). In January 2009, during the Israeli invasion of Gaza, the police watched an “Anti-Hamas Protest” as well as a “Palestine Peace Vigil”, a “Gaza Meeting and March” and an event titled “Christians for Justice in Palestine”.

Anti-war protests

Several other operations relate to anti-war activities: a “Rakon Industries protest” during the Gaza invasion in January 2009, a “Waihopi” (sic) protest in Wellington in September 2009 (which is after the annual report was released but might be a mistake and should be 2008 while the deposition hearing of the Ploughshare domebusters was on), the annual NZDIA weapons conference in Wellington and a “Bible Group US embassy” which relates to a group of Christian peace activists.

Tamil

Several operations were run on protests relating to the conflict in Sri Lanka between the Sri Lankan government and the Tamil Tigers. It confirms suspicions that the Tamil community in New Zealand is under heavy surveillance. Operations were run on an “[a]nti Tamil Tiger protest by Sri Lankan Singhagalese” (sic) in Counties Manukau, and a “Tamil Society Vigil”, a “Tamil Tiger Protest” and a “Sri Lankan Protest” in Wellington.

Other protests

Other operations were run on a “McDonalds Protest”, the “National Front rally”, “J Day Rally”, the Residents Action Movement “Peoples' Procession March” around their GST campaign, all in Wellington; the massive hikoi in Auckland against the super-city, as well as a “Truck Protest” and an “Iranian Protest”; an operation was run on a protest in Otahuhu “re lack of swimming pool”; and the only known protest with an operation in the South Island was “Op Erma” in Canterbury to do with “genetic modification of foods” in August 2008.

Howard Broad – a serial misinformer

It is not news that the New Zealand police investigates political activists involved in various movements ranging from trade unions to environmental groups, indigenous and anti-war activists. Over the last few years, the outing of police informant Rob Gilchrist and the state terror raids of 15th October 2007 have clearly demonstrated that various police 'intelligence' units, including the ones who are tasked to find terrorists - of which there obviously aren't any - investigate, surveil and bug political activists.

When Gilchrist's informant work of 10 years was discovered, Police Commissioner Howard Broad said that “[w]e're not interested in the to-ings and fro-ings of protest groups who may be wanting to stand outside a building and put placards up, or do all the sorts of things that you would associate with lawful protest in a free and democratic society.” (15th December 2008) The list shows that this is a complete lie as most of the operations are targeting people holding placards outside buildings.

The Search and Surveillance Bill – increasing police powers

The Search and Surveillance Bill is currently before parliament. If passed into law, it will dramatically expand the police powers of surveillance and search for extremely minor crimes such as trespass. It would also abolish two fundamental concepts of western law: the right to silence and the right not to incriminate oneself (the right not to participate in one's own prosecution).

Public submissions on the bill were heard in October 2009. Out of the 42 submissions only one was unreservedly supportive of the bill. Those speaking against the bill include the Privacy Commissioner, the Human Rights Commission, NZ's Chief Justice, Lawyers, Unions and advocacy groups.

The remaining operations

Of the 84 operations, 82 are accounted for. Two, both in the Canterbury region, are not known because “the district that conducted the operations cannot locate [the] detail.”

55 operations took place in the Wellington region, nine in Counties Manukau, eight in Auckland City, four in the Central district, three in Canterbury, two each in the Eastern and Waikato districts and one in the Waimate district. Clearly, the Wellington district is over-proportionally represented, partially due to VIP visits which often take place in the capital.

Of the 84 operations, the vast majority are to do with protest activities. The ones that aren't, or are only partially, include 17 VIP visits in Wellington (which includes visits by the Prime Minister of France, the Australian Prime Minister, the Israeli Ambassador, and also two unnamed Prime Ministers), an international basketball event in the Waitemate district, the Trentham races, a visit by the Governor-General to the Central district and “Operation Ratana”, presumably for the visit of Members of Parliament to Ratana Pa in February 2009.

What is an operation order?

None of the operation orders have been released. However, from court cases over the years, activists have acquainted themselves with operation orders. A police operation order usually sets out how to manage a major operation. The commander of the operation appoints people to do the various jobs: 'intelligence', team policing, liaison with protest target etc. Then they write up the plan and this operation order is the plan they work from during the operation.

It also contains a list of job descriptions and the command structure and plans for the operation eg, intelligence officer, whose job it is to liase with police intelligence groups and pass this on to the rest of the operation; team policing units, whose job is to thump people; liaise with the target of the protest; liaise with the protesters (this comes under intelligence); lists of radio frequencies to be used; transport; maps etc.

In other words, these are major operations involving the use of significant amounts of police resources. In some cases, the police outnumber the protesters.

List of operations 2008/9

Waitemata

  • “Operation FIBA U19 WBC” (1/07/2009) – “Third largest international basketball event.”

Auckland City

  • “Truck Protest” (03/07/2008)

  • “Student Protest” (01/07/2008)

  • “Anti Terror Raids Protest” (26/08/2008)

  • “Skinny Santa Protest” (14/11/2008)

  • “Waterside Workers' Strike” (1/12/2008)

  • “Falun Gong Rally” (25/02/2009)

  • “Free Tibet Protest” (06/03/2009)

  • “Iranian Protest” (24/06/2009)

Counties Manukau

  • “Asian Community protest” (2/7/2008) – “Highlighting violence in the community”

  • “Assyrian Neneveh on violence” (1/11/2008) – “Condemming killing Christians in Iraq”

  • “Summit” (25/02/2009) – “Anti-government protest at Economic Job Summit”

  • “Rakon Industries protest” (16/01/2009) – “The supply of GPS systems to US military”

  • “Tamil Tigers” (19/01/2009) – “Anti Tamil Tiger protest by Sri Lankan Singhagalese”

  • “Chained Dog” (19/03/2009) – “Animal Cruelty”

  • “Tamaki Community Board” (27/04/2009) – “Protest re lack of swimming pool in Otahuhu”

  • “Hikoi” (22/05/2009) – “AK Super City protest”

  • “Chained Dog” (8/06/2009) – “Animal Cruelty”

Waikato

  • “1080 Protest” (16/08/2008)

  • “1080 Protest” (11/10/2008)

Eastern

  • “CBD1” (1/01/2009) – “Inner City Violence”

  • “CBD2” (1/04/2009) – “Inner City Violence”

Central

  • “Operation Ratana” (01/02/2009) – “Ratana Church”

  • “Operation General Election” (01/11/2008)

  • “Operation Putiki” (01/10/2008 – “Govenor General visit”

  • “Operation Massey” (00/00/2008) – “Student occupation of university registry”

Wellington

  • “Falun Gong” (17/07/2008)

  • “Tibet Candlelight vigil” (07/08/2008)

  • “Falun Gong/Amnesty International Protest” (16/08/2008)

  • “Republic Protest Parliament” (06/09/2009)

  • “Republic Protest Govt House ” (07/09/2009)

  • “Waihopi Demonstration” (18/09/2009)

  • “RNZAF Air Power Conference” (23/09/2008)

  • “Stagecoach Bus Strike” (25/09/2008)

  • “Peoples' Procession March” (03/10/2008)

  • “NZDF Industry Association meeting” (07/10/2008)

  • “Jerusalem Quartet Demonstration” (07/10/2008)

  • “Global Day of Action” (15/10/2008)

  • “National Fronth Rally” (02/11/2008)

  • “McDonalds Protest” (05/11/2008)

  • “Bible Group US Embassy” (06/11/2008)

  • “Australian High Commission” (01/12/2008)

  • “Protest against Justice” (11/12/2008)

  • “Greek Embassy Protest” (12/12/2008)

  • “Christians for Justice in Palestine” (13/01/2009)

  • “Anti-Hamas Protest” (14/01/2009)

  • “Palestine Peace Vigil” (15/01/2009)

  • “Gaza Meeting & March” (20/01/2009)

  • “Friends of Tibet Protest” (10/03/2009)

  • “Tamil Society Vigil” (16/03/2009)

  • “ANZ-ING Protest” (17/04/2009)

  • “Tamil Tiger Protest” (30/04/2009)

  • “Israel Independence Day” (01/05/2009)

  • “J Day Rally” (01/05/2009)

  • “Air NZ Protest” (07/05/2009)

  • “Sri Lankan Protest” (14/05/2009)

  • “VUW Protest” (29/05/2009)

  • “Peruvian Embassy Protest” (12/06/2009)

  • “Cuban Friendship Society Protest” (17/06/2009)

  • “Health Services Vigil” (21/06/2009)

  • “Rail & Maritime Union” (26/06/2009)

  • “Australian Embassy Solidarity Demo” (30/06/2009)

  • “Pay and Equity Rally” (30/06/2009)

  • “Trentham Races” (19/01/2009)

  • “Op Typhoon” (5/07/2008) – “VIP visit”

  • “Saudi Agriculture Minister” (13/07/2008) – “VIP visit”

  • “Premier of Niue” (29/07/2008) – “VIP visit”

  • “PM of Tuvalu” (11/08/2008) – “VIP visit”

  • “Op Gollard Australian Deputy Prime Minister” (13/08/2008) – “VIP visit”

  • “Israeli Ambassador” (22/08/2008) – “VIP visit”

  • “Op Gusmao PM of Timor” (28/08/2008) – “VIP visit”

  • “Japanese Minister” (30/06/2008) – “VIP visit”

  • “Op Prime Minister” (06/10/2008) – “VIP visit”

  • “Op Shah” (15/10/2008) – “VIP visit”

  • “President of European Community” (14/02/2009) – “VIP visit”

  • “President of East Timor” (15/02/2009) – “VIP visit”

  • “President of Afghanistan” (25/02/2009) – “VIP visit”

  • “Australian Prime Minister Rudd” (01/03/2009) – “VIP visit”

  • “President of Korea” (02/03/2009) – “VIP visit”

  • “Prime Minister of France” (10/03/2009) – “VIP visit”

  • “Op Prime Minister” (30/07/2009) – “VIP visit”

Canterbury

  • “Op Erma” (12/08/2008) – “Genetic modification of foods”

  • “Not known” (??/??/????)

  • “Not known” (??/??/????)

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Comments

So Howard Broad and his force

So Howard Broad and his force of Stasi's are still lying and still spying.

operations order

So does an "operations order" always mean spying.  It could just mean having a uniformed officer present, or directing traffic.

michael, it could mean just

michael, it could mean just having a uniformed officer present. But given that operation orders are written before an operation (ie. on a protest, a strike, a vigil etc.), it certainly includes some intelligence work already. Given that at many of these protests we observe several police photographers, plain-clothes police, spying is certainly what they are doing.

 lying pigs with their snouts

 lying pigs with their snouts in the trough

Nothing new really - has been going on for years!

This is nothing new at all. When attending any significant march or protest action you will always see some cameras around. Some are of course from the media, but if you look around carefully and attentively you will at least sometimes spot people that you will not know and have not seen before. There are bound to be some from either the police or even other intelligence gathering officers around going about recording certain people and their actions. Why do you think the SIS keeps records on so many people - even totally harmless and innocent people like some MP's of parties in parliament! In a small country like NZ - that is actually quite vulnerable when compared with larger and more developend countries in Europe, America and Asia, yes even in Africa, the government agencies and their secret services are to some degree paranoic. This country has been visited by members of Al Qaeda too, although probably not with intentions to commit terrorist activities here. That at least was even reported in some mainstream media a few years ago. Such incidents do of course get exploited to justify the surveillance actions. So with the Search and Surveillance Bill in the making we should be highly alerted!

HC, who is being paranoid

HC, who is being paranoid here? Surveillance by intelligence does not *of itself* represent a threat to freedom of speech and association. All the major liberal democracies of the world have intelligence agencies, and yet democracy still thrives. I think intelligence is completely justified in monitoring protest activity. If a protest group believes their cause would be better served by exploding a car bomb in a busy street, I would hope that the intelligent agencies would intervene to protect people's lives and property.

we don't live in a democracy

we don't live in a democracy Leon. we are ruled by a tiny elite who own and control the vast majority of resources in society. sure, there is the appearance of democracy and individual freedom, but little substance to it. parliament in the main serves the interests of that elite as you can see by all the attacks on ordinary people the Tories are carrying out, trying to pass the costs of the recession onto us and not the elite class. the state protects and polices the property and interests of the that elite under the disguise of helping everybody.
This surveillence is all a part of the state trying to stigmatise and suppress legitimate dissent. they are scared that their massive worldwide ripoffs of the working class and their economic meltdown are brewing a major social timebomb. they are trying to sell us an image of all protesters being potentially violent and dangerous as part of their global clampdown on internal dissent, and an attempt to scare people off from taking action. but they are the terrorists, we aren't. look at how they have invaded iraq, afghanistan and so on. not one radical group in aotearoa would ever contemplate car bombs or anything like that. only overseas groups of religious and nationalist nutters would ever contemplate that.

Hmmm...not convinced

no name (not verified), here are a few things to consider;

1. We do live in a democracy. Last time I checked, I couldn't see any death squads, concentration camps, or secret police. But, hey, maybe I wasn't looking hard enough last time I walked into a polling booth to cast my vote in the general election. 

2. But before you accuse me of being naive, consider this: you may be right that elites control resources in our society, but at least I have the opportunity to participate in the democratic institutions that have the potential to compromise the interests of elites. I accept that system is perfect, but it is far better than any totalitarian socialist alternative.

3. As for the costs of the recession being passed onto ordinary people, you may have overlooked the vast number of business failures and investment losses (which are borne by elites as much as any others) that occurred in the last two years. 

4. And finally, history has demonstrated time and time again that protest movements led by those sincerely and uncompromising committed to revolutionary political objectives will use violence to achieve their goals. They might be "nutters", as you say. But maybe the "radical groups" in aotearoa lack balls, perhaps you could shed some light on that.

1. We do live in a democracy.

1. We do live in a democracy. Last time I checked, I couldn't see any death squads, concentration camps, or secret police. But, hey, maybe I wasn't looking hard enough last time I walked into a polling booth to cast my vote in the general election.


and last time I checked democracy is not defined by the existence or lack there of of death squads, concentration camps, or secret police. Democratic - from its Greek origin "rule by the people" - is certainly not how we are socially organised here.

Last time I checked, we were

Last time I checked, we were still having elections every so often. Doesn't that fulfil the definition of a democracy? Although I agree that the principle has been undermined by MMP.

I wasn't being serious...

I wasn't being serious...

That's a BS cop-out!

OK but if you really feel like that, why be so adament about your arguments before? Are you actually serious, or are you perhaps not just one of those "narcs" that frequent this forum, just to see what responses people give??? I feel you either lack backbone or are a fake! What you say in the end is not convincing!

That's a BS cop-out!

OK but if you really feel like that, why be so adament about your arguments before? Are you actually serious, or are you perhaps not just one of those "narcs" that frequent this forum, just to see what responses people give??? I feel you either lack backbone or are a fake! What you say in the end is not convincing!

Having elections where the

Having elections where the same parties win all the time is not a democracy. Lentil2: once you have an opinion which is not based on the corporate media soundbites that are fed to them by parliament's right-wing politicians, and decide to express it, you will begin to understand why we are against how the police are operating.

Tar-lungnz: If and when your

Tar-lungnz: If and when your opinions become based on reality, rather than the deluded fantasy land of a stoner desperately trying to intellectualise their own impotent irrelevance, you'll come to understand that you've let paranoia and indoctrination overcome reason and fact.

When at every demonstration

When at every demonstration you attend you can play 'spot the plainclothes copper'. When you have your telephone tapped for several months. When the police attempt to hit you in the head with a camera because you look away to stop them having your photo taken. When a car filled with surveilance gear is parked outside of your flat all day. When you discover that at least one person who attends your open meetings works for the police. When your passport is taken by a customs agent at the airport because you haven't given them 'the right answers' to their questions. When any of these things happen to you, as they have happened to some of us, you will understand that it is not paranoia when they are actually after you.

You believe everything that the media tells you is a 'fact', and then think that other people are indoctrinated?!?

Ha ha - surveillance of a candle light vigil may be justified?!

I am sorry, Leon, but why do they target even "candle light vigils", when this is clearly not a kind of "protest" or action that poses any kind of threat! So all this may be justified? I think you are like so many lulled into the comfort of "painless numbness" as long as you can get your bare essentials covered by the income you may get paid. To get to the bottom of things we need to ask questions and do some thorough research and analysis. Only then will our eyes slowly be opened bit by bit!

So they're taking photos of

So they're taking photos of you. Big f#$king deal.

Brain of a lentil or 2

Yeah - brain of a lentil or 2 I think!

LOL! That made my day!

LOL! That made my day!

Have you ever wondered whether this website may be screened?

I think also it is more than likely that this website will be screened regularly. It would be naive to think that any forum for critical debate and information would not be watched and checked to some degree. Question is: Is this worth it, and is it justified? But some people in certain agencies will be seeing a threat around any corner and from any section of society. It is important to take a stand and get on with things. Their mindset is the problem. So showing fear is basically the same as giving them power and control over others. If criticism is justified, rights of others and freedom of speech are respected, then we simply execute democratic functions and express our free minds. Better stand up for it and confront the criticism openly, rather than play hide and seek, which will create an even more paranoic, manipulated and perverted society as we have!

POLICE SURVEILLANCE VIDEOS

 

Demo Fetishists

Maybe these guys and gals filming and taking photos are just "demo fetishists"? I feel so comfy and numb now, I trust everybody, no matter whether they like to take photos of me doing whatever. They must be caring, loving people only having my well-being on their minds. Certainly such evil as spying and investigating innocent people cannot and will not take place in our lovely little "conner" on this planet! All you people being so mistrusting should perhaps see a psychotherapist. Yeah, it must be that you have mental illness, because good people do not do bad things and hence nothing bad can be done to us!?

Last time I woke up ...

Last time I woke up I turned the radio on. I heard commercial after commercial to buy certain things, it drove me up the wall. Last time I turned the telly on I was bombarded by commercial advertising to buy this that and the other, otherwise I would be unhappy, feel sick, miss out, get burgled, get harassed, neglect my health and so forth. I felt ill after that, thinking I must be missing the message. All was only obtainable by an agreement to surrender money I get from a humble income. So that process of giving away this little bit for consumer products, often more than questionable was supposed to help me and make me feel good. I saw through it and still do. This is what this society is based on: Commercialism, materialism, exploitation and manipulation. Most do not bother do question it, they are comfortably numb. They do not mind the game. But look out, anybody "cutting them short" by perhaps not doing the same is AN ENEMY. Division becomes an issue. Mistrust, envy and hatred take over. That is what the ruling class want. So it works, it works for the ones in power who impose this manipulative rule on others! YOU have the choice to wake up, realise and opt out of this BS!

HC has an epiphany

HC has a prophet-complex. Shut him up.

The truth is HC, I believe society is as you see it: based on commercialism, materialism etc. But it's not because of the manipulations of an evil conspiracy of a "ruling class". Business supplies a demand, that's it. There's nothing more to it. If you don't want to be part of it all, that's fine, leave. No one will stop you . But if you start telling other people how to live, or impose your ideals on anybody against their will (no matter how justified you may feel), expect trouble. As I said before, history has proven over and over again that revolutionary social change ends in violence and disaster. I'm comfortable with the status quo (imperfect though it may). The alternative is far worse.

Prophet complex and ignorance

Wow! "HC has a prophet complex. Shut him up!"

Than you Leon, you show your true colours. If you cannot handle criticism then you call on the editior and others to "shut him up". What a cop-out once again. You seem to love the game as it goes, you raise the supposed issue that revolution or rebellion cause violence. That is BS, because there have been examples of peaceful revolutions. And when a revolution turned violent, then this used to be caused by the suppressors and cliques in rule, because they saw the threat of losing their power. So read true history and do not blab on about nonsense that has been fed into your lentil brain for all those years that you have bothered to live!

 

Hey, I thought it was me with

Hey, I thought it was me with the Lentil brain!

Of course I was showing my

Of course I was showing my true colours. I wouldn't say that I "love" the game as it goes; the status quo is certainly far from perfect and could be improved through gradual change. But I'd rather try and play the game as best I can, than shoot the referee and change all the rules. 

As for examples of "peaceful revolutions", I would be interested in seeing some. So too would millions of others who couldn't live to enjoy the "revolution" in Soviet Russia, Mao's China, il-Sung's North Korea, Ho's Vietnam, and Pol Pot's Cambodia. I'm sure that they wished they could have had a change to "bother to live", you dumb ass. 

Stop dodging. Why are you

Stop dodging. Why are you calling for HC to be shut up?

What's more why do you think the editorial collective would give a flying fuck about your pathetic attempts at trolling and do so anyway?

 

Not trolling

I'm not trolling this forum. I believe that you revolutionaries and activists, although maintaining justified concerns, are misguided and dangerous. I feel an obligation to counter the comments posted on this site. If you aren't able to accept or consider any alternative points of view, you are no better than a fascist tyrant yourself. 

I was being facetious when I told HC to "shut up". 

You make a lot of assumptions

You make a lot of assumptions about people who post here, and also can't tell the difference between the authoritarian and libertarian left. I fail to see why you bother picking an argument when you already have your mind made up.

Furthermore, to add to things you've made assumptions about, as far as I'm concerned you're more than welcome here. I for one find your ramblings mildly amusing.

I do find it hard to tell when you're being facetious though. You're a bit shit at humour to be brutally honest.

 

You're a bit shit at insults,

You're a bit shit at insults, to be brutally honest.

You make a lot of assumptions

You make a lot of assumptions about people who post here, and also can't tell the difference between the authoritarian and libertarian left.

I think you're having definitional problems. Can we have an example of a "libertarian left" regime that is not authoritarian? Oh wait, I've got some - NZ, Canada, France. History demonstrates that the further to the political extremes you go, the more authoritarian the regime needs to be to maintain that extreme. Leon has provided some pertinent examples. National Socialist Germany is another that springs to mind.

 

I fail to see why you bother picking an argument when you already have your mind made up.

Isn't the point of an argument to communicate your point of view and convince others that it was correct. Leon wouldn't be very good at arguing if he just gave up and accepted everything you said now, would he?

 

I for one find your ramblings mildly amusing.

The feeling is mutual.

they spy for a good reason

I'm sick of hearing people say 'they are surveilling activist because there are no terrorist and they having nothing better to do'

It's surveillance; profiling activist to gather intelligence which can then be used for repressive purposes to maintain and secure state capitalism's social control and exploitation of the people.

Dissent is called terrorism because the rich are terrified of loosing there billions of dollars to those who they stole it off (such as maori) and who earnt it for them (workers).

Many protesters are not merely protesters, but revolutionaries. The state sector sponsored by the capitalist are anxious of loosing their fotunes and their power.

 

 

 

You have a point there!

Yes it is the fear of losing control and power by the lobby groups and oligopoly business interests that puts pressure on the state and consequently enforces such actions by the agencies of the state, in this case the police! So they do want to discourage protests and resistance that puts pressure on their power hold and justification to rule as they do. They always have ways of manipulating the population so they achieve governments like the present one to get voted in. Fear campaigns, all means of suppression are the ways they rule. Democracy is just a figleaf they have hung out to excuse what happens.

Exactly! We need to rise up

Exactly! We need to rise up in revolutionary class struggle! We must overthrow the ruling class of money whoring capitalist pigs! We must counter the subversive surveillance tactics of the Stazi police!...

Oh no wait. We live in NZ. One of the most socialist countries in the Western World. We get security, education, healthcare, social welfare amongst numerous other social services care of the state (i.e. the taxpayer). We have the right to vote in local and central government elections. We have the right to assemble and communicate directly with our elected representatives.

The quid pro quo for all that is when we threaten the peace by talking about revolutionary class struggle, the state can (and should) keep tabs on us to ascertain whether

 

  • we've lost touch with reality and are actually going to go train in the Uraweras for 9 months to prepare to assassinate the prime minister; or

  • we're just a bunch of limp wristed nutless pussies masturbating over Che Guevara posters and using our student loan money to buy extortionately priced coffees at 'Fidels' cafe.
Ball's in your Court.

 

grrrrrr...typo scrap that

grrrrrr...typo scrap that post^^^^

wake up and smell the pams

wake up and smell the pams coffee

the services that are tax payer funded ,such as  free healthcare,welfare etc are going to become a thing of the past under this current government .

Its already starting ,exploring insurance for welfare ,cuts education etc

They are slowly turning the screw and favour the US model of privatise ,that wont work in this country ,we pay taxes for healthcare aND welfare,thats what it should go to  ,,and yeah i work .

balls in your court

"Ball's in your Court"

"we've lost touch with reality and are actually going to go train in the Uraweras for 9 months to prepare to assassinate the prime minister..."

Well those people you are somehow referring to are facing some charges before a court! So you are making allegations about people defending those charges before a court! What does that mean? Seems you are already considering them "found guilty" before hearings have been conducted!?? What kind of society is that which you favour? You are a twisted mind I am afraind that comes across with nonsensical arguments and verbal diorrhea!

I am sure you will be given listed in the next "Queen's Honour List" by the establishment within this country! They love people like you!

This isn't a debate the

This isn't a debate the Urawera idiots. But they do demonstrate that people at the political extremes are prepared to use violence to get their way. It follows that the range of proportionate responses would justifiably include surveillance (at the least).

Sieg Heil! Comrade Lentil or Two!

You are on the extreme - so I salute you: "Sieg Heil Comrade Lentil or 2!"

 ^^^^mmmmm ,what to do with

 ^^^^mmmmm ,what to do with my time as im a sad right wing ignorant sod ...i know ill spam indymedia those left wing types with my crap opinions

 

 

That's so typical. When you

That's so typical. When you have nothing further to add to the debate and no response to a point of view that you don't agree with, you're only option is to turn to personal abuse. Well fuck you too.

What's galling is that you calling me ignorant. Look in the mirror. You've labelled me "right wing" (without knowing my politics) because I'm adopting a position that you interpret as "authoritarian". But if you knew anything about political theory (or human history), you would know that "left" or "right" has nothing to do with authoritarianism. There are as many examples (if not more) of left wing governments being as authoritarian as right wing ones. Including the one that coined "Seig Heil".

As for extremes, I think we agree to disagree. You think people who are planning to carry out hate crimes and assassinate our (left wing) political leadership should be free from the tedium of police surveillance. I think it's a justified limitation on their rights.

Surveillance and Lentil2

"What's galling is that you calling me ignorant. Look in the mirror. You've labelled me "right wing" (without knowing my politics) because I'm adopting a position that you interpret as "authoritarian". (Lentil2)

 

Well, Lentil2, where did I label you "right wing" or "authoritarian"? Your comments are somewhat confusing and to some degree absurd! You tend to pick issues with people criticising surveillance of people involved in activities that are peaceful, non-violent and simply democratic! You clearly are in favour of surveillance and defend this strongly. That does not necessarily mean that you are "authoritarian" yourself, it may mean that, but it may not. I feel you are simply rather gullible towards the authorities in question in NZ - or a "control-freak" yourself. In defending such activities by the NZ Police and certain other agencies you may even be a member of these organisations???!

 

What is your interpretation of "Sieg Heil"? Do you even understand the meaning? Since you spell it wrongly you obviously are not very familiar with the German language and writing. That greeting or salute was abused by the Nazis all right, but otherwise it means nothing but a good luck wish or salute for achieving (common) victory or success. You have been brought up with too many war movies where Germans were the evil ones and such few quoted German words were used to portray them all as one and the same, namely "Nazis".Not all Germans were Nazis. There were also social democrats, communists, christian-conservatives, liberals and so forth in Germany then, as there are today. Sadly many were suppressed and even persecuted.

 

So your whole argumentations here are as confused as your state of mind must be. I cannot relate to your ramblings at all and do totally agree to disagree with you! Good luck with your views and philosophy. I for one know where I stand, but with reasonable and convincing comments made by others I can also live! Yours do not belong to those.

You are on the extreme - so I

You are on the extreme - so I salute you: "Sieg Heil Comrade Lentil or 2!"

...

What is your interpretation of "Sieg Heil"? etc rant. blah.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sieg_Heil... You were implying that I was a Nazi (and therefore authoritarian and, in your world, right wing). You can't seriously argue otherwise. Not only is that incorrect, but also highly offensive. But not as offensive as your moral high horse crap about ordinary German people during the War and how I don't understand.

How fucking dare you.

My grandmother was in the Hitler Youth (like all Germans between the ages of 10 and 18). All three of her brothers died on the Eastern front, no-one knows where. After the war, she was made to clean up concentration camps and nurse the prisoners to health. I grew up with the pictures, the stories and the emotion - the sadness, the shame and the regret.

What's your connection? Huh?

You presumptuous fucktard.

"you presumptions

"you presumptions fucktard"

someones getting upset and in true tory fashion has to revert to name calling

how immature of you ,you offer nothing ,you are just a waste of space

^^^ please toss off

^^^ please toss off elsewhere!

Dear Lava Lamp / veganarcho /

Dear Lava Lamp / veganarcho / tane / Jay / Lentil (imposter) / Lentil3 (imposter)Go away Troll.Then learn how to punctuate.Regards,L2

It is ironic that you have at

It is ironic that you have at times pulled others up for their spelling and punctuation so it annoys me that I have to point out to you that it is 'Urewera' not 'Urawera' Lentil2, try to make an effort at spelling please.

Secondly since you are of German descent, it might be time to enlighten readers with a 'quid pro quo' on Germany's version of the NZ Special Intelligence Group, called Verfassungsschutz. Perhaps you can explain how they doing on the surveillance vs civil rights front. In what way do the Bundesamtes für Verfassungsschutz differ from the Stazi for whom many Germans had hoped was a thing of the past?

George Rangiaho
Ngāti Rongo

Shame on you!

The fundamental issue in this thread ought to be whether the police/intelligence agencies are justified in monitoring protest activity. My view is that that are. Lentil2 seems to agree. Others disagree. It is a shame that HC has resorted to the sort of argument so often used by the Left in desperation - the allusion of someone's position to Nazism. Disappointing

 

Who started the abuse and particularly resorted to swearing?

Thank you Leon to wake up again and now show your true views, which at one stage you said "were not serious"!

Re this poster called "Lentil2" I have attached a reply at the bottom of this thread.

Yes, who started to get abusive and rubbish all reasonable argument?

I do not need to say any more. Those that defend the surveillance of innocent and peaceful protesters in even small groups are the very ones that we need to watch out for in a democracy!

You will most certainly support the steps planned with the "Search and Surveillance Bill", I suppose.

Yes I've shown my true views.

Yes I've shown my true views. You disagree. Get over it.

What are your concerns with the Search and Surveillance Bill?

 @George RangiahoIt is ironic

 

@George Rangiaho

It is ironic that you have at times pulled others up for their spelling and punctuation so it annoys me that I have to point out to you that it is 'Urewera' not 'Urawera' Lentil2, try to make an effort at spelling please.

Thanks for pointing that out. George Rangiaho = 1: Lentil2 = 0. Since written Maori is transliterated using English phonetics, I normally feel comfortable transcribing Maori words the way I hear them. "Urawera", "Wanganui". But if "Urawera" annoys you, I'll use "Urewera".

 Secondly since you are of German descent, it might be time to enlighten readers with a 'quid pro quo' on Germany's version of the NZ Special Intelligence Group, called Verfassungsschutz. Perhaps you can explain how they doing on the surveillance vs civil rights front. In what way do the Bundesamtes für Verfassungsschutz differ from the Stazi for whom many Germans had hoped was a thing of the past?

You're asking me to explain and justify the activities of Germany's current intelligence apparatus on the basis I'm part German? That's ridiculous. It's like me asking you to explain/justify cannibalism in pre-European NZ on the basis that you're (part) Maori.
Oh and by the way, there's a typo in your post. "Perhaps you can explain how they are doing on the surveillance..."
Lentil2Ngāti Deutsche

 

Yeah I can imagine why you

Yeah I can imagine why you would need to pick up on that typo being a typo nazi as you are ;)

I thought I would give you the opportunity to enlighten us about how surveillance intentions by specialist police groups pretty much end up the going the same way the Verfassungsschutz has....since you seem so adamant that you have the greater connection to extremism in Germany because of your tupuna being from there....or have you forgotten your own words further up the discussion thread.

Still awaiting your opinion on Verfassungsschutz, or your next excuse why you do not want to discuss them.

George Rangiaho
Autonymous rohe of Ngai Tuhoe

If you have some kind of

If you have some kind of objection to the Verfassungsshutz then you should just say it. That would be more effective than taking this oblique route of cross-examining me about being part-German.

As for your question, it's difficult for me to make informed comments about "Verfassungsshutz" because I don't know much about them. You seem to think I should be an expert on German security organisations because I'm part German. My response (as above) is: that's ridiculous. 

What I will say is that organisations that monitor and deal with threats to a country's security are a fundamental part of any Government. As this thread demonstrates, it's a matter for debate whether a particular organisation's methods for achieving those objectives are appropriate.

In my view, it's difficult to argue that it's wrong for Police to photograph protesters. Anyone is entitled to take photographs in public places, it is not some special power reserved to Police. It doesn't harm anyone. Information is gathered so that, if the looney fringe decides to cross the line of legality to make their point, the Police are better able to protect society by apprehending those people. The remainder, who get their message across within the bounds of the law, have nothing to fear. 

Any apprehension that protesters feel by being photographed is a fair trade off for the protection the Police provide. After all, next time they're gathering information it might not be about environmentalists or anarchists. It might be about radical right wing skin heads who hate Maoris and Asians and like to run around North Canterbury pretending to be SS.

Oh, and by the way, it's "autonomous".

 

The Real Lentil

Ngati Legume.

I think your analysis of

I think your analysis of police investigation being restricted to photography at protests is a little naive. The most public aspect of their intelligence gathering is the public photography, however their activities go much deeper than that.

The reason I bring up the Verfassungsshutz is not that they are German per se, but that they are a lesson in how a country is learning from the mistakes that this country is making as it moves in leaps and bounds to consolidated surveillance policing.

So as for differences between the Verfassungsshutz and NZ Police spy groups, well one of the differences would be in order to be listed as an extremist and therefore open to targetted surveillance, you must hold clear anti-democratic views and have been verbose about them, whereas here in Aotearoa you can come onto the surveillance radar by merely attending a protest or hanging out with known activists.

There are other differences in approaches too for example, the Verfassungsshutz may categorise anarchists as extremists committed to socialist revolution and seeks to overthrow the Government, whereas the NZ police tend to categorise anarchists like any other political activists from animal rights activists to vegans, seen as people prone to criminal activity therefore in need of surveillance.

Unlike the NZ Police spy agencies, the Verfassungsschutz live under laws that provide common guidelines for identifying extremist groups to be monitored and for selecting methods of observation.

The NZ Police Intelligence section have through threat assessments, categorised the likes of the Green Party, Maori Party, UNITE, NDU and other organisations and groups as extremist groups, and are actively spying on these organisations and groups including covert surveillance, interceptions of communications and placing of undercovers and informants into their circles.

While many of the powers extended to the Verfassungsschutz are broader powers and minimal restrictions on their exercise, going by their reaction to similar groups in Germany, they would not have made the same general categorisations as the NZ Police.

By far the biggest difference is the strict separation of police powers from intelligence in Germany, due to them learning the hard lessons of the past with the Gestapo and the recent Stazi - that this level of intelligence powers coupled with police powers pretty much always results in the same authoritarian and despotic outcome.

For that reason the Verfassungsschutz are not allowed to stop, question, detain, arrest, search or interrogate suspects, nor to search private residences, nor seize personal materials (known as the Trennungsgebot principle) but the NZ Police spy agencies like the SIG are.

This principle (Trennungsgebot principle) was instituted to assist in preventing the reemergence of a Gestapo/Stazi-like security agencies which are inevitable when you extend spy groups the power of arrest and detainment, incarceration etc.

It is from these lessons that many people all around the world are wary of the shift of police from criminal investigational focusses to Verfassungsschutz level intelligence groups focussing on political dissident investigation, while retaining all the powers of the Stazi adding preemptive intelligence work into their portfolio which will probably end being their primary business as has happened in the past in other countries where such powers were combined.

It is from this point of view that I also hold my concerns about police activities and attitudes concerning political activism in this country,

George Rangiaho
Ngati Rongo
Tuhoeland

You say I'm naive to assume

You say I'm naive to assume that Police surveillance of protesters is limited to photography. I didn't assume that. I'm just saying that I think photographing protesters is almost always justified.

You say the Police conduct "deeper" surveillance activities on protesters. But those activities are not described in the article (it talks about "operation orders" but doesn't say what they are). It's difficult for us to have an informed debate about unspecified activities.

I take your point about the separation of intelligence and enforcement functions in Germany - it's an additional check on executive authority. However, I suspect that it wouldn't matter to you whether it was the Police or some special intelligence agency conducting surveillance, you would still object.

To put it another way: Would you prefer protests to be monitored by the Police alone (They would already be there to ensure the protest was carried out within the law) or would you also like a specialist intelligence agency to turn up?

Te Lentil

You say it wouldn't matter to

You say it wouldn't matter to 'me' whether it was the police or some special intelligence agency conducting surveillance and that I would still object, however that is a rather general assumption and if you take a longer look at history you will see the rise in concern about surveillance of protestors being directly proportional to the procurring of the surveillance role of political activists by Police Intelligence.

What simply began as photography, names and addresses databasing by non-police spy groups, of prominent activist figures has been enlarged 100 fold to not just databasing of all activists, but also monitoring of their associations, online opinions, email communications, to even placing informants like the souless, fearful and all round general wanker, Rob Gilchrist, who was caught spying for the police, into organisations like UNITE in order to get a closer look at union groups (Matt McCarten spoke about this on TV3's Sunrise programme a year or so ago).

Asside from the explosive expansion of surveillance on activist groups since being taken over by Police Intelligence, there is also the expansion of police powers to bug, video, interception communications, detain without arrest and raid without court sanctioned warrants, some already attained, others in the pipeline. It is the combination of these activities that is I believe at the root of concern amongst many activists who feel that this is an encroachment on their rights to be activists free of this type of discrimination....and they are right about that.

George Rangiaho
Ngati Rongo
Tuhoe Nation

So your real objection is to

So your real objection is to the surveillance itself, rather than the separation of intelligence and enforcement functions (your original point)?As for Police surveillance, I think the Police are justified in keeping tabs on anyone they reasonably believe will break the law. Activists should not be immune from monitoring just because their motivations are political. All people should be subject to the same standards.And like I've said before, it's a matter for debate whether Police surveillance methods are appropriate. No doubt a relevant consideration is the seriousness of the suspected threat. There are certainly questions about whether the Police acted appropriately in the Gilchrist case.

So your real objection is to

So your real objection is to the surveillance itself, rather than the separation of intelligence and enforcement functions (your original point)?

No my objection is to both issues, the level of surveillance is over the top and the fact that the spy group has the power of arrest and will eventually get the power of detainment without arrest and the power to bug, video and interception every communication without judicial oversight, is just as if not more disturbing as history shows where all that will eventuate at.

There are certainly questions about whether the Police acted appropriately in the Gilchrist case.

Gilchrist is just one paid police informant of about three that have so far got caught in the last few years.

The reality is that there will probably be dozens if not more on police intelligence payrolls informing on the activities of activists.

Going by the Stazi as a guideline (the culmination of powers of arrest and powers to surveil) there will also be under cover cops in groups and there will be off the books surveillance on communications as was the case in the power polluted Stazi, as was the case with Operation Leaf in the 1980s where several SIS agents stepped over the line and ran illegal operations on activists.

As was the case with the police and SIS conspiracies surrounding the unlawful searchs of Aziz Choudry and Dr David Small's houses which was just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the level of surveillance they were carrying out on them and again the photography at rallys is also just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the official and unlawful operations the police are carrying out on activists today.

George Rangiaho
Ngati Rongo
Tuhoe Nation

Protests monitored by

Protests monitored by protestors. No police, no spooks, no informants and especially no intelligence agency. If a crime is committed... then witnesses to that crime can report in the same way as any other crime. In my experience police in NZ go to protests to harass or assault protestors or to conduct various forms of surveillance, not "to ensure the protest was carried out within the law". If the latter was the case, the police would go to protests to watch themselves.

Silly rabbit, tricks are for

Silly rabbit, tricks are for kids.

You can't seriously expect protesters to "nark" on people (friends) in the same group, protesting the same cause, out the of their own sense of moral duty. Not unless you're suggesting that evey protest group should have its own Rob Gilchrist.

I don't condone Police harassment or assault of protesters. However, when action is necessary to prevent protesters from breaking the law, I believe that a proportionate and if necessary, physical, response is justified. And hey, let's be honest, the whole thing wouldn't be as exciting if there wasn't that risk, right? But that's not the subject of this thread. We're talking about surveillance here.

This is typical "when it suits" thinking. If Police were gathering intelligence on neo-Nazis or free-market capitalist pigs (which they do, along with other agencies e.g. SFO, SecComm, ComCom) you would have no problem justifying it. But when they do it on you, it gives you the heebie-jeebies because (*OH NO!!!*) you realise that your actions might have consequences.

Get over it.

It's called personal responsibility - the rest of us live with it. It's the quid pro quo for being fortunate enough to live in a society that is protected by the law.

news coverage

Thompson & Clark fleabag in news item?!

Looks like that fleabag John Campbell from Thompson & Clark Investigations Ltd made it into the news item! He's the Wellington boss for Provision Security, a wholly owned subsidary of the Flea's Nest TCIL. He's the one with the video camera behind the window. ;-)

Proves it all - good work!

This news item, admittedly by a party of the "private enterprise media", does prove it all! The Police are hyppocrites and dishonest. I have enough information and evidence to confirm this. Those that still think that such activities of filming and observing activists, because it is justified for the security of society, should wake up. If that is correct what the interviewed officer says, why do they not film public crowds at rugby games, other sports events and social gatherings of diverse kinds? It smells like rotten fish, yes it stinks and exposes their dishonest methods. I know of incidents of police brutality against arrested persons, not even activists. So anybody coming across to tell me about what goes on and discrediting the claims and statements made by many here is simply not credible her- or himself!

I agree with lentil2, we

I agree with lentil2, we should just let the cops spy on everything because history shows us that this level of intrusive power does not pollute....aye lentil2, show us that list of countries that have engaged this type of surveillance and have not fallen into despotism, and prove all these dreamers, jihadists and terror supporters wrong.

With respect to Lentil2, I

With respect to Lentil2, I can answer this question -

How about:

United States

United Kingdom

New Zealand 

Australia

Germany

France

Canada

need I go on...

And this news report doesn't indicate that "the cops spy on everything". They monitor protest activity to ensure that the activists are acting within the bounds of the law - that's the job of the police, right?

What is this supposed to mean?

I have been in various countries on this globe and also seen protests and other actions there. I can tell you that the kind of usually very peaceful and small marches, pickets and other activities that take place in NZ are compared to most so-called "western" and democratic countries so harmless and innocent, it makes absolutely no sense to take photos, film and record things happening on them. If you would have ever seen May Day unrest in some major European cities you may  have a bit of a reason that the authorities may bet concerned. We have nothing at all comparable to that ever happening here, yet the police, SIS and some other dubious agencies try to tell us they need to film, observe and control the harmless activities here, supposedly to "protect" the participants?! I could otherwise only laugh if it was not so serious what we are discussing!

A lively debate for once!

It is good to see some lively debate here. Eventhough I must disagree with certain views, a bit of a stir is needed from time to time! Better than watching the stupid "telley"!

Lentil2: Hitler or Nazi Salute - possible sources, your comments

See following links and references first:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Bellamy

http://rexcurry.net/roman-salute-oxford-english-dictionary.html

You really have a problem, mate! If you would do a bit more research then you would find out that there is no clearly identifiable source for the greeting you take offence to. I merely wrote the verbal greeting "Sieg Heil", which means nothing like "Hail Victory" or something similar. "Heil" or "hail" in English are old words simply meaning a form of greeting. Certainly Hitler abused the greeting and changed it to varying forms - in order to make his followers greet him and each other in special ways and to express forms of loyalty.

 

I simply used the words in an admittedly cynical manner, which an intelligent and emotionally stable person would have easily picked up.

 

You through resort to instant anger and abuse!

 

If it is true what you say about your grandmother and her brothers I do understand more about where you come from and why you may be having such hang-ups. It is not true that ALL youngsters in Germany had to join the "Hitler Youth", which was actually reserved for males! There was a similar form of organisation for girls which was called differently. If you are so well informed you should have known this, but you obviously do not, despite of having heard so many stories about that time!

 

Anyway your outburst here does not really change anything! You made quite clear that you support police and state agencies filming and surveying innocent people. That to me is unacceptable and remains to be so!!!

 

The fact that you do support this - particularly by pre-judging certain people arrested in the so-called "terror raids" about 2 or so years ago, and with that justifying those actions of surveillance - makes clear to me that you are probably more dangerous than the people you criticise and pre-judge.

 

You really have problem, man. So stand in front of a mirror yourself, face up to your heritage and get real about what needs to be done to protect true democracy!

 

I have personally studied German history, large exposure to that culture and have lived there for years myself, if that helps. Nobody can fool me that easily about the aspects of the 'Third Reich', the so-called 'Nazis' and what happened and did not happen there. Good luck!

You really have a problem,

You really have a problem, mate!

Yeah, I've got a problem. It's putting up with your abuse and your ignorant horse-shit comments. 

like we are putting up with

like we are putting up with you shit ,lentil 2 !

you know theres a big bad world off the internet to explore

lentil2 and 3 we are one and

lentil2 and 3 we are one and the same

@GemThanks for your

@Gem

Thanks for your advice.

Perhaps you could add something to the discussion at had?

@Lentil3 aka imposter

What?

Summa Summarum - measures supported to bring about police state

To sum it up and being able to refer to the most recent post by 'Leon', it is now clear what he and 'Lentil2' stand for: The SUPPORT of increase powers of the police and other state agencies proposed in the so-called 'SEARCH AND SURVEILLANCE BILL' presently before Parliament and at a Select Committee! Informed people know that the measures proposed in it are at least in some points contrary of the aims and rights given under the 'NZ Bill of Rights Act' and other legislation! You two believe in numerous new powers that are planned to be given to police to arrest, search and surveil persons - under vague rules applied to give them suspicions that concerned persons may be committing an offence! To my opinion those measures proposed bring us closer to a situation common in so-called "Police States". The clear convictions, views and ambitions of 'Leon' and 'Lentil2' have been EXPOSED!

HC! Could! You! Please! Stop!

HC! Could! You! Please! Stop! Finishing! All! Your! Sentences! With! An! Exclamation! POINT! It's annoying.

How can you deduce that I support the Search and Surveillance Bill? To be honest, I don't know much about it. That's why I asked you what your concerns with it are. And please don't use sanctimonious phrases like "informed people know". And what, precisely, have I been EXPOSED to? 

 

@HCWhat? How did you make

@HC

What? How did you make that connection?

The Police already have the power to photograph protesters. It's not some new draconian power being introduced by the Search and Surveillance Bill. Newflash: Everyone has the right to take photographs in public places (toilets excepted). So I'm not sure how you're making the link between questioning your objection to being photographed and supporting the Search and Surveillance Bill. (I don't even know what's in it - do you?).

Anyway, this isn't a debate about the Search and Surveillance Bill. That's a different thread - post there. This is a debate about whether it's reasonable for Police to monitor protest activity by photographing it. Leon and I think it is, on the basis that a small minority of protesters might use violence to achieve their aims. You think it's not, because you think it's OK for lunatics to run around the Ureweras in camo, hoarding knives and hunting rifles, and planning to kill the Prime Minister.

We've agree to disagree on that point.

HC, this thread has prompted

HC, this thread has prompted me to find out more about the Search and Surveillance Bill. I guess I have you to thank for that (gulp).

My queries brought me to a thread posted on the IMC on 31 January 2010: "Search and Surveillance Bill before Parliament", posted by "October 15th Solidarity".

I see you, HC, had the following post on the thread:

Brainwashed to death they do not even care what goes on. We need true shock-treatment I increasingly believe. Otherwise this country ends up to be more than dumbed down, which it already is; it will be a grazing ground for all opportunists and commerically ruthless entrepreneurs that turn the people here into slaves, sluts and idiots!

What do you mean by that, HC? A car bomb would be shocking; or would you prefer the assassination of a public figure? No wonder you are so opposed to police surveillance. You are precisely the kind of individual that the police should be pursuing.

Leon is obsessed with disorder, violence and bombs

Well 'Leon' how smart you are! You have finally realised that there are other topics and discussion threads on this website. This can enhance an informative mindset and help with education too by the way.

Since you like to quote me you have with your comments immediately jumped to conclusions which again shows what your mindset is like. You suggest a "bomb", same as you think revolution or social rebellion always cause violence and disorder.

I can only laugh! I never thought about violence for a moment. Rather I thought that we will anyway be faced with the results of the short-sighted, destructive and wasteful economic and social policies that are being followed by the present and other governments glorifying the free market above everything else.

This "shock treatment" will come sooner than you may think in the way of economic collapse (follow the news about world economic, social and environmental developments), which will throw our society in disorder. Then the comfy and numb majority too busy consuming and running after every gadget, fad and personal indulgence will suddenly not have the means to continue a short-sighted and in the long run self-destructive life style.

Not knowing how to do simple things they will have no money worth much, no food, no basics. What will they do? What will happen?

Have a guess. Maybe look at what happened in Port au Prince in Haiti after the large earthquake there. That is just a little impression of what will happen in many populated centres around the world.

What will you do without electricity, flowing water, sanitary facilities that function, bla, bla, bla.

You defend police and SIS wasting their time and taxpayer's resources on photographing and filming peaceful and harmless protestors. That shows where your priorities lie. You should perhaps try and see the bigger picture for once. That is if you can do that.

And again to that one going on about certain people allegedly training for 9 months in the Urewera mountains to - I quote: " Kill the Prime Minister." - Get real! You make accusations and judgments before anything has been proven. Many people do daily make snyde and rude, yes violent remarks about certain people or situations, not intending to do what they say. So wait and see what the courts decide, before you discuss such matters in an open forum and pre-judge people!

"The END IS NIGH!"Lol.You

"The END IS NIGH!"

Lol.

You make accusations and judgments before anything has been proven.

Oh the irony! You're quoting a fundamental principle of a political system you don't even support. Perhaps you can fill me in on whether they had the presumption of innocence in Stalinist Russia? How about Maoist China? Anyone talked to any Cubans about it lately?

Many people do daily make snyde and rude, yes violent remarks about certain people or situations, not intending to do what they say.

Perhaps. But not many people run around the mountains playing commando, making pipe bombs, and shouting "White capitalist non-vegan colonists! Die!"

So wait and see what the courts decide, before you discuss such matters in an open forum and pre-judge people!

No, I'll make my own judgement, thanks. I'm not going to rely on "the system" to tell me what to think :p

Lentil 1 - 99 square or now 'Real Lentil'

Did you get out your six pack now and guzzle down the juice that makes your mind tick the way it does?

How do you know what kind of system I support? I have not even made any statements pro any of the kinds of regimes you are referring to!

Join your mate Leon, because you both share this obsession with the supposedly hateful revolutionaries wanting to blow up bombs in NZ and elsewhere.

Now what did you claim? Your grandmother was a member of the 'Hitler Youth'?

Was she male or female? Only males were allowed into the Hitler Youth! So somewhere your claims do not fit together. Pull the wool over other people's faces.

But then again, you are too busy. Cheers mate, enjoy your drop!

Perhaps we should call you 'Leontil'?

Perhaps we should call you 'Leontil'? Maybe you supposed two are one and the same 'Leontil'?

Well experienced at profiling - by using the information supplied in your many present and past posts, I can already create a good one for you. So we will put it all together. Also does your computer have its own ID number, which will via the supplied email address and some other bits of data enable us to detect you very easily now.

Lo and behold, the boys in blue (or do you think "in brown"?) may suddenly knock on your door and ask a few questions.

Search and Surveillance works, you will find out!

Economic collapse

Economic collapse, are you serious? This violent revenge fastasy of yours might give you some comfort, but I think its disturbing.

the comfy and numb majority too busy consuming and running after every gadget, fad and personal indulgence

Well...this only further confirms in my mind why the police are justified in monitoring protest activity: To protect society from people like you. Not everyone in the world is evil, HC. Most people (the "comfy and numb majority") just want to get on, without sanctimonious, morally-indignant, self-righteous zealots like you telling them what to do. You're not perfect. What qualifies you to pass judgement like this? Oh, so you've seen some expose documentary down at the "community centre", or you've read "No Logo"; get over yourself. I've had enough of this thread. I feel like supporting the search and surveillance bill only to spite you

GOOD RIDDANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

GOOD RIDDANCE !!!! COUNT ON THE MONEY YOU HAVE IN THE BANK!!!!!! RELY ON THE NOT PERFECT BUT ACCEPTABLE SYSTEM!!!! TRUST IN WHAT YOU THINK YOU CAN TRUST IN, BUT DO NOT THINK CRITICALLY, YOU MAY GET TOO STRESSED AND ONLY GET A HEADACHE!!!!!!!!! HAHA!!!! ENJOY YOURSELF WITH THE SEARCH AND SURVEILLANCE BILL TURNED INTO AN ACT SOON!!!!!!!!!!!

Fuck you, HC.

Fuck you, HC.

Thank you for your compliments - but ...

Thank you for your kind comment, but I do not feel inclined to be f***ed by you, because you do not turn me on, you turn me off!

I am sure you will find an opportunity to find someone else that is happy to communicate and relate to you at the level you choose and wish to do this.

Just watch out while you are at it. The SIS may be keeping a watchful eye over what you and whoever is with you get up to. But as I have read this is only fair enough for you. Maybe being an exhibitionist gives you the extra kicks?

I am not an exhibitionist and take objection to being "surveilled" while there is no reason for it. I also oppose measures in the Search and Surveillance Bill, which are very draconian and an infringement on civil rights.

Enjoy yourself - and perhaps they will let you view the video they make of you?

Go and fuck yourself, then.

Go and fuck yourself, then. See what I care. Either way, I think you're a dipshit.

Enjoy your "demo". I'll be keeping well away from Queen St in case you decide some "shock treatment" is called for. Dumbass.

 

Leon  lentil 3 the real

Leon  lentil 3 the real Lentil  ...are the same person seriously get a life

No we're not.Lentil2 and The

No we're not.

Lentil2 and The Real Lentil are the same person (I had to register this name because the Lentil moniker kept on getting stolen). Leon is a different person.

But thanks for your constructive, intelligent comment.

 

you stole my name ! i am not

you stole my name ! i am not lentil 2

You are a troll and an

You are a troll and an imposter.

I am The Real Lentil.

Lentils belong in a soup that must be boilt at high temperature!

Lentils must be put into a pot and boilt in a soup, that is how to deal with Lentils before they get devoured and eventually through digestion get turned into what better matches their description!

So all you lentils keep playing games about who is or should be Lentil 1, 2, 3, 4 ..........99 and more, while we will be getting on raising our voices about the Search and Surveillance Bill before Parliament.

A demo is planned for 2 pm this Saturday on 24 April 2010 opposite Aotea Square or in front of 360 Queen St, Auckland City.

Those that genuinely feel concerned and join the protest are welcome to come along and be counted.

Stray lentils will  be welcome for a nice warm stew to feed the hungry on the sidelines.

Have a nice day!

I see what you did there!

Wow. That was really clever. Lentil Soup! 

Richard Nixon was a good man

Richard Nixon was a good man and a true patriot.

Nixon - patriot, surveillance

http://www.bmartin.cc/pubs/03BRwhistle07.html

http://www.antifascistencyclopedia.com/allposts/richard-nixons-spy-lucia...

Richard Nixon - "true good patriot" ! True spymaster!

Well he must be a good kind of example that you like to promote and follow!

NO MORE LIABILITY FOR POSTINGS BY HC, HC1 AND SIMILAR

DUE TO BEING HIJACKED BY CERTAIN SCAMMERS AND SPAMMERS ON THIS VENUE I TAKE NO MORE LIABILITY FOR ANY POSTINGS UNDER USER NAME 'HC', 'HC1' OR ANY OTHER SIMILAR NAME!!!!!!!!

 

IT IS PRETTY CLEAR WHO IS BEHIND THIS AND THE EDITORS SHOULD FOLLOW THIS UP IMMEDIATELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Will the real HC please stand up?

Same thing happened to me. Some douchebag is doing it for shitz and giggles. Register your name so it can't be hijacked. I suggest something like "The Real HC"... Leon and I would miss you if you stopped posting:p

WTF!!?? I go away for a

WTF!!?? I go away for a couple of days and I get this imposter pretending to be me? Fuck off and get yourself a job or at least a better hobby you silly little turd!

I am Lentil and I'm the real

I am Lentil and I'm the real Lentil and all the other Lentils are just imitating.

Will the real Lentil please stand up?

You again? You are about as

You again? You are about as interesting and amusing as a Sanitary Pad.

Yet again another imposter

Yet again another imposter albeit one with an obvious unusual sexual predilection for those things that lie in Women's underwear

I have been assessinated now - good bye

Sorry to leave you all, but the day of reckoning has now struck me dead! I am transiting into another existence in another sphere.

If you draw another oversized

If you draw another oversized penis in pink crayon on the living room table I will be contacting the pigs.

^^^ i am the real lentil ,

^^^ i am the real lentil , lentil 2 stole my name and keeps trolling this website!

I am the real lentil and so

I am the real lentil and so is my wife!

Please hide these nonsense

Please hide these nonsense comments.

its given me a laugh , good

its given me a laugh , good to have a bit of 'humour' on here for once

We are watching you :-)

hey everybody, a lot of rubbish has been posted here. Could you stop please? Us editors have better things to do than going through a dozen pointless comments to find out who is and who isn't Lentil. How about writing some interesting articles for the newswire instead.... Just a thought.

cheers

smush (member of the editorial collective)

thats nice you have better

thats nice you have better things to do but i dont have a life!

calling occupants of interplanetary craft!

PS This will be my last post here!

Thank you editor

thank you editor, it is a pity that some action is sometimes needed, but it has done a lot of good to get rid of some silly business on this thread! It can only do us all some good! We do not need more Lentils, that is for sure.

I started it. My bad, I

I started it. My bad, I apologise.

Here we go you impostor!

do not call yourself HC because you are NOT. So your apology is a cheap skate bs  comment on behalf of someone you are NOT! Back off and get real. It was probably you - under another BS name - that started all the abuse and trivial nonsense! No time for you, thank you!

This discussion looks like

This discussion looks like its been attacked by agent provocateurs on the payroll of police spin central. I have had more balanced discussions about the roll of cops and spying from cops.

Hi Paru,If you're referring

Hi Paru,

If you're referring to me, I can confirm that I have nothing to do with the Police or the SIS or any intelligence apparatus. I'm posting in a personal capacity, to generate debate about the issues that have been raised, and because I disagree with what I view as extremism and paranoia.

I don't pretend to know for sure, but I assume that if this thread was being monitored, then the people conducting surveillance (if there are any) would have the good sense not to post anything. If they did post something, I'm almost sure they would post in favour of the activism, not against it.

Lentil.

 

P.S. You mean "role", not roll.

the real lentil you miss my

the real lentil you miss my point by a Tuhoe mile....again. Some of you sound like you might as well go get a job with the spooks since you offer no other point of view than their fear driven paranoia infested korero that any activist with strong opinions must be on some fucken jihad........like your bumchum neville gibson from the nbr.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-947291905241301873

I'm 007

Paru, you're hilarious. Your post doesn't make sense. But it made my day. More please.

- TRL aka James Bond

 

In the course of several

In the course of several contacts with police I also have also had the opportunity to quiz a few of them about their thoughts on the surveillance of politically minded kiwis and found there to be some unease about where the police are heading but on the whole the rest were clammy and just didn't want to discuss their personal feelings on this topic other than the party line, for obvious reasons.

Since the 2 and a half

Since the 2 and a half year spying operation the cops been doing on the gardening shops, weed activists, growers and users last week made the news. 10,000 or more people in this country jis had their privacy invaded during that operation, phone records, text messages, emails, internet surfing, trademe accounts, eftpos sales, bank records, power bills, phone bills, covert surveillance videos, bugging and fucken undercovers gallore.

Anyone that witnessed that raid and saying police spying on activists is still justified and necessary to the countrys safety is living with their head up their arse. And yes that includes you and your bumchums Lentil.

What about addressing issues objectively and without insults

I not that in this long thread there appear to be some that prefer to abuse others and talk in a derogative way.

Surely a good and healthy debate does not need to go down to such levels.

Interesting reading though - at least some of this.